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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

And so it starts

203 replies

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:16

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now.
sad
fuming
disbelief

my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event.

She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child.

now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’

then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing.

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy.

I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings
b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts

although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Iwasafool · 27/09/2023 19:35

Maybe it is a girl who is masculine looking and likes masculine hair cut or whatever. Your niece isn't the final judge of who is and who isn't a girl. I was a tomboy, cropped hair, always in boys clothes, often mistaken for a boy and I've given birth to 4 children so I'm pretty sure I qualify as female.

Don't understand what you are upset about, do you seriously think primary schools are going to cheat at some fun event?

Sprogonthetyne · 27/09/2023 19:30

At my kids school both sexes go in wereing the same joggers/t-shirt & school jumper on pe day. Some boys have long hair, some girls have short hair. It's still clear as day which are boys or girls.

Helleofabore · 27/09/2023 19:24

This one from *Dr Hilton and T Lundberg. has a section on children.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

In early childhood, prior to puberty, sporting participation prioritises team play and the development of fundamental motor and social skills, and is sometimes mixed sex. Athletic performance differences between males and females prior to puberty are often considered inconsequential or relatively small [18]. Nonetheless, pre-puberty performance differences are not unequivocally negligible, and could be mediated, to some extent, by genetic factors and/or activation of the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis during the neonatal period, sometimes referred to as “minipuberty”. For example, some 6500 genes are differentially expressed between males and females [19] with an estimated 3000 sex-specific differences in skeletal muscle likely to influence composition and function beyond the effects of androgenisation [3], while increased testosterone during minipuberty in males aged 1–6 months may be correlated with higher growth velocity and an “imprinting effect” on BMI and bodyweight [20, 21].

An extensive review of fitness data from over 85,000 Australian children aged 9–17 years old showed that, compared with 9-year-old females, 9-year-old males were faster over short sprints (9.8%) and 1 mile (16.6%), could jump 9.5% further from a standing start (a test of explosive power), could complete 33% more push-ups in 30 s and had 13.8% stronger grip [22]. Male advantage of a similar magnitude was detected in a study of Greek children, where, compared with 6-year-old females, 6-year-old males completed 16.6% more shuttle runs in a given time and could jump 9.7% further from a standing position [23]. In terms of aerobic capacity, 6- to 7-year-old males have been shown to have a higher absolute and relative (to body mass) VO2max than 6- to 7-year-old females [24]. Nonetheless, while some biological sex differences, probably genetic in origin, are measurable and affect performance pre-puberty, we consider the effect of androgenizing puberty more influential on performance, and have focused our analysis on musculoskeletal differences hereafter.

Australian children

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=021cccdaed57d120bb05bac71c05ee82b0c5b315

Greek (sorry, no access)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2015.1088577?needAccess=true

Abstract

The aim of the this study was to establish age- and gender-specific physical fitness normative values and to compare percentiles and Z scores values in a large, nationwide sample of Greek children aged 6–18 years. From March 2014 to May 2014, a total of 424,328 boys and girls aged 6–18 years who attended school in Greece were enrolled. The studied sample was representative, in terms of age–sex distribution and geographical region. Physical fitness tests (i.e. 20 m shuttle run test (SRT), standing long jump, sit and reach, sit-ups, and 10 × 5 m SRT) were performed and used to calculate normative values, using the percentiles of the empirical distributions and the lambda, mu, and sigma statistical method. Normative values were presented as tabulated percentiles for five health-related fitness tests based on a large data set comprising 424,328 test performances.

Boys typically scored higher than girls on cardiovascular endurance, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and speed/agility, but lower on flexibility (all pvalues <0.001). Older boys and girls had better performances than younger ones (p < 0.001). Physical fitness tests' performances tended to peak at around the age of 15 years in both sexes. The presented population-based data are the most up-to-date sex- and age-values for the health-related fitness of children and adolescents in Greece and can be used as standard values for fitness screening and surveillance systems and for comparisons among the same health-related fitness scores of children from other countries similar to Greece. Schools need to make efforts to improve the fitness level of the schoolchildren through the physical education curriculum to prevent cardiovascular risk.

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage - Sports Medicine

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

SuperNewMe · 27/09/2023 19:18

Yes, it's not clear how "I just know" is that they actually know, or just thinking the child in question is a boy - especially a child who doesn't even go to the school they're from (that's how I read it anyway, seeing as the official had asked the school the child was from, which implies not from the same school.as OP's kid)
Also very intrigued by pp 's "they'll smell each other"
What?!
Reminds me of that old rhyme
Little girls smell of sugar and spice and all things nice
Little boys smell of rats and puppy dog tails
😁

Helleofabore · 27/09/2023 19:16

Another one

Danish study on VO2 max and LBM in children from age 6

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725036/pdf/v039p00725.pdf

Maximum oxygen uptake and objectively measured physical activity in Danish children 6-7 years of age: the Copenhagen school child intervention study

Eigberg, Hasselstrom, Gronfeldt, Friberg, Svensson, Anderson
October 2005

Objectives: To provide normative data on maximum oxygen uptake (Vo(2)max) and physical activity in children 6-7 years of age and analyse the association between these variables.

Methods: Vo(2)max was measured in 366 boys (mean (SD) 6.8 (0.4) years of age) and 332 girls (6.7 (0.4) years of age) from preschool classes in two suburban communities in Copenhagen, during a progressive treadmill exercise. Habitual physical activity was measured with accelerometers.

Results: Boys had higher Vo(2)max both in absolute values (1.19 (0.18) v 1.06 (0.16) litres/min (+11%), p<0.001) and relative to body weight (48.5 (6.0) v 44.8 (5.6) ml/kg/min (+8%); p<0.001) than girls. The difference in Vo(2)max between boys and girls decreased to +2% when expressed relative to lean body mass (LBM). Absolute Vo(2)max was related to LBM, body mass, and stature (all p<0.001). Boys were more physically active than girls (mean counts +9.4%, p<0.001), and even when boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys were more active. The difference in physical activity between the sexes was higher when sustained activity of higher intensity was compared.

Conclusions: Vo(2)max is higher in boys than girls (+11%), even when related to body mass (+8%) and LBM (+2%). Most of the difference in Vo(2)max relative to body mass was explained by the larger percentage body fat in girls. When boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys engaged in more minutes of exercise of at least moderate intensity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725036/pdf/v039p00725.pdf

IThoughtTerryWoganWasMyDad · 27/09/2023 19:10

I mean I was endlessly mistaken for a boy by both adults and other children when I was a child and I'm very proudly a woman.
One of the many reasons I'm a G.C feminist now.
If the child in question is a boy, yes it's shit otherwise it could have been me years ago.

Helleofabore · 27/09/2023 19:08

Here are some studies and papers to ward off the ‘there is no difference!’ arguments .

Sex Differences in Track and Field Elite Youth

Mira A. Atkinson, Jessica J.James, Meagan E.Quinn, Jonathon W. Senefeld andSandra K. Hunter

https://sportrxiv.org/index.php/server/preprint/view/324/version/419

RESULTS: Males ran faster than females at every age in the 100, 200, 400 and 800 m (P<0.001). When combining all running events, the sex difference (%) was 4.0 ± 1.7% between 7-12 years and increased to 6.3 ± 1.1% at 13 years, and 12.6 ± 1.8% at 18 years (P<0.001). Similarly, males jumped higher and further than females at every age (P<0.001). For long jump, the sex difference was 6.8 ± 2.8% between 7-12 years, increasing to 8.5 ± 1.7% at 13 years, and 22.7 ± 1.4% at 18 years (P<0.001). For high jump, the sex difference was 5.3 ± 5.2% between 7-12 years, increasing to 10.3 ± 2.4% at 14 years, and 18.4 ± 2.04% at 18 years (P<0.001).

CONCLUSION:Prior to puberty in elite youth track and field athletes, there is a small but consistent sex difference, such that males run faster and jump higher and further than females. The sex difference in performance was event dependent and increased significantly from ~12 years for running and 13-14 years in jumping events

Sex Differences in Track and Field Elite Youth | SportRxiv

https://sportrxiv.org/index.php/server/preprint/view/324/version/419

beastlyslumber · 27/09/2023 19:07

JanesLittleGirl · 27/09/2023 18:50

Just because we find it difficult to accurately sex young children doesn't mean that they do. They are not mini adults.

And it sounds like they knew the boy in question and were 100% confident he was a boy. Interesting how ready people are to discount what girls are telling them. Good on you OP for supporting them.

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 19:00

beastlyslumber · 27/09/2023 18:40

Not sure why pp are insisting this couldn't happen and that people can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl.

This shit is happening everywhere.

Nobody on this thread has insisted that this couldn't happen.

It's just if my niece came up to me and said they "just knew" something I'd ask how they knew. These stories can get ugly when it turns out this was just a gender non-conforming child racing in the correct category. This has happened before.

Dissidente · 27/09/2023 18:55

The kids would have been able to smell each other. Pupils from the winner's school might have known.
However if it's a girl it could be very upsetting.
Exceptional 9yo girl athletes often have short hair and look muscular.

AmeliaEarhart · 27/09/2023 18:53

beastlyslumber · 27/09/2023 18:40

Not sure why pp are insisting this couldn't happen and that people can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl.

This shit is happening everywhere.

Because honestly people can’t always tell! I have a 10 year old daughter with short hair who wears mostly trousers and shorts and she DOES frequently gets mistaken for a boy.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think biological males should be competing against females at any age, but it’s incorrect to suggest that people are never mistaken about a child’s sex.

OllyBJolly · 27/09/2023 18:53

If it's a primary school, it's more than likely the child was known to someone in the friendship group.

I used to run a junior youth club (age 9-12) and I could see a smart ass boy manipulating this. No gender confusion, just an open goal to win a prize. And I can fully believe that the current climate of fear means that teachers won't challenge.

Well done for supporting your daughter and her friends.

JanesLittleGirl · 27/09/2023 18:50

Just because we find it difficult to accurately sex young children doesn't mean that they do. They are not mini adults.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/09/2023 18:48

I don't think the OP has said that the child in question had short hair, some posters are assuming that's what the other children were going on?

neilyoungismyhero · 27/09/2023 18:44

Children that age aren't stupid. If they say it was a boy it probably was. Unfair.

C1N1C · 27/09/2023 18:42

Pull them from the races in future. If enough people do it the school will have to change its policy

beastlyslumber · 27/09/2023 18:40

Not sure why pp are insisting this couldn't happen and that people can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl.

This shit is happening everywhere.

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 18:36

but the girls were absolutely adamant that they knew it was a boy.

my niece just says she knows it was a boy and she fully understands that long hair doesn’t mean girl, short hair means boy.

But did nobody ask how she “just knows” though? Does she know the child in question?

Primary aged children are pretty androgynous until you add clothing and hair styles.

Blondebutnotlegally · 27/09/2023 18:26

I mean, I wouldn't be "fuming in disbelief" until I knew for sure. And unless the child in question has got naked in front of your niece, (which if that were the case she would likely mention as she was challenged on her assumption) you can't know for sure.

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 18:06

i didn’t see the child in question but the parent who made the comment about ‘is this a mixed race?’ Said that it was clearly a boy, in no way presenting as a girl in any ‘stereotypical’ way.

my niece just says she knows it was a boy and she fully understands that long hair doesn’t mean girl, short hair means boy.

OP posts:
Changethetoner · 27/09/2023 17:58

It would have been a boy, who felt like a girl that day, and their teachers are going along with the nonsense, and affirming it. I do not doubt your niece at all.

NitroNine · 27/09/2023 17:57

Absolutely not wishing to undermine your niece, but it is incredibly unusual these days for girls to have short hair. There are lots of adults who think hair length is gendered, so they’d be with [modern] 9yos on “short hair = boy”.

Otherwise, 9 is still an unusual age & stage for a “trans girl” to be remarkable to a group of their peers in a context like that. A male child identifying as female would be presenting as female; & as your niece’s understanding from a brief interaction was that the child in question was boy, I’d be more likely to think “he’s” a gender-non confirming girl: short hair, “boys’” clothes &/or shoes, & perhaps taller than the others.

Did you ask her why she thought the other child was a boy?

If the other school did allow a male child to enter a race for female children that is dreadful; but I would be wary of stating with certainty that was the case.

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:57

I totally agree. We don’t know for sure and we said as much to the girls.

my SIL has always been very keen to ensure that her daughter understands that girls can have short hair and boys long hair etc. That certain clothes don’t mean you are a boy or girl.

but the girls were absolutely adamant that they knew it was a boy.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 27/09/2023 17:52

In this day and age it might just be a girl with short hair. Did your niece know the child in question?