Page 7 | And so it starts

MimiSunshine · 2023-09-27T16:16:51+00:00

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now. sad fuming disbelief my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event. She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child. now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’ then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing. one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl. my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy. I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 08:40

I don't really understand why anyone is disputing this, even if they've never noticed it themselves.

Because it's being used as a way to invalidate the experience and undermine the words of the girls who had their race stolen by a boy.

The whole 'it might be a girl and you can't tell, you shouldn't judge' is how boys and men are destroying women and girls' sports. Women and girls should not have to suck it up in dread of accidentally wronging a female in pursuit of protecting female sports and spaces. That's just another way for males to sneak in without challenge.

Exactly this.

TrailingLoellia · 27/09/2023 23:30

I was also mistaken for a boy constantly from very young age all the way into adulthood. Children, adults- all mistook me for a boy.

I have a ‘handsome’ face.

I was a tomboy and almost all my friends were boys. I had short hair (above the ears and spiked), and hated skirts/dresses so was always in trousers or shorts. I would be with the boys on the playground, sitting with them on sports days, and even as a teenager was viewed as ‘one of the boys’ which gave me no end of grief as I had a crush on a close friend but he didn’t see me as a girl…

Even the exam invigilator mistook me for a boy at one of my A level exams- I was 17. I was bit by a dog when cycling and the owner mistook me for a teen boy- I was 26!

Rudderneck · 27/09/2023 23:03

I used to be mistaken for a boy a lot too, up until I was about 9.

That's not to say these kids were wrong. You can often tell, even with pre-adolescent kids. Sometimes even with babies you can make a guess.

But it isn't as reliable as it is with older people.As the number of adult women who have had the experience of being mistaken for a boy when they were young shows.

I don't really understand why anyone is disputing this, even if they've never noticed it themselves.

JanesLittleGirl · 27/09/2023 22:04

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/09/2023 20:15

And this is what happens when the social contract breaks down. That is, the acknowledgement that girls and boys are different and that sport (and other areas) are separated on the basis of sex. People become suspicious, stop trusting the honesty and integrity of officials and assume that people are lying.
Pretending that people can change sex and shamefully allowing children to be involved in the charade, has been a completely regressive & retrograde step for society, baking in unfairness and discrimination - especially for girls and women.
We'll never know but what a shame for all those children involved.

This

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 21:31

AvacadoFieldsForever · 27/09/2023 21:18

This.
The real issue isn’t whether you can tell or not tell, it’s that a 9 year old has to think about this shit at all. It’s that a parent can’t easily advocate for their child’s rights and fairness. It’s that 9 year olds are being softened up to accept this for the rest of their lives.

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Yes definitely the trust is gone. This issue would not have arisen 10 / 15 years ago. Nobody would have doubted that everyone in the girls race was actually a girl.

AvacadoFieldsForever · 27/09/2023 21:18

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/09/2023 20:15

And this is what happens when the social contract breaks down. That is, the acknowledgement that girls and boys are different and that sport (and other areas) are separated on the basis of sex. People become suspicious, stop trusting the honesty and integrity of officials and assume that people are lying.
Pretending that people can change sex and shamefully allowing children to be involved in the charade, has been a completely regressive & retrograde step for society, baking in unfairness and discrimination - especially for girls and women.
We'll never know but what a shame for all those children involved.

This.
The real issue isn’t whether you can tell or not tell, it’s that a 9 year old has to think about this shit at all. It’s that a parent can’t easily advocate for their child’s rights and fairness. It’s that 9 year olds are being softened up to accept this for the rest of their lives.

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 20:57

Still happens, usually in the winter.

Yes it’s definitely worse in winter!

Froodwithatowel · 27/09/2023 20:45

The whole 'it might be a girl and you can't tell, you shouldn't judge' is how boys and men are destroying women and girls' sports. Women and girls should not have to suck it up in dread of accidentally wronging a female in pursuit of protecting female sports and spaces. That's just another way for males to sneak in without challenge.

Prior to there being deception, no one would have thought twice about whether a girl was just a girl with an unusual presentation which is fine, or whether everyone is lying and pulling a fast one by gaslighting that a boy is a girl.

I would be asking the race organisers, to confirm this is a single sex race and that biological girls only are competing.

IThoughtTerryWoganWasMyDad · 27/09/2023 20:43

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 20:17

This.

I do wonder how the "you can always tell" people explain how women are ever mistaken for the opposite sex. When I cut my hair short I am, on a relatively regular basis, mistaken for male by strangers. I think this is because I am fairly androgynous physically. I am taller than average with a flat chest and wide shoulders and narrow hips I also have a brow ridge and a prominent nose. Clearly some people get it wrong from time to time. Why is this so controversial?

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Happened to me most of my adult life on and off until I had long hair and my tits grew bigger/fatter.
Still happens, usually in the winter. Last year a man who was probably 20 years younger than me called me "Son" in a queue.

Iwasafool · 27/09/2023 20:42

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 20:37

Oh I agree on not overly quizzing. It was just when they said ‘a boy won’ we were asking what they meant, how do you know? We did ask were they sure it was just a girl with short hair because girls have short hair and my niece said no. X (her friend from school) has short hair. The winner was a boy.

i fully believe that they were right. Yes you can be mistaken for a boy if you’re quite androgynous but I’m sure people quickly realised their mistake once they get close or interact.

No unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, people don't always realise their mistake. Some are rude enough to express their surprise when corrected or even worse get embarrassed and flustered which can be really cringe.

You don't know, you said yourself you didn't notice, your niece doesn't actually know, honestly standing with boys does not prove you are a boy, tomboys frequently hang around with boys.

Original poster

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 20:37

Oh I agree on not overly quizzing. It was just when they said ‘a boy won’ we were asking what they meant, how do you know? We did ask were they sure it was just a girl with short hair because girls have short hair and my niece said no. X (her friend from school) has short hair. The winner was a boy.

i fully believe that they were right. Yes you can be mistaken for a boy if you’re quite androgynous but I’m sure people quickly realised their mistake once they get close or interact.

OP posts:

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 20:37

BandicootCrash · 27/09/2023 20:30

When I was 9 I had an awful "princess Di" gone wrong haircut. Coupled with a permanently grumpy expression, and a fairly substantial physique, I was almost entirely mistaken for a boy for about 3 months.

Maybe no one ever got close enough to smell me though.....?

Ha ha I am just starting to wonder if perhaps my smell is a bit off!

Iwasafool · 27/09/2023 20:32

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 20:25

We did gently question how they knew it was a boy but they were looking at us like we were mad and saying ‘because it was a boy’.

my niece has since said that she saw the child earlier on standing with the boys group of her year group who were getting ready to race and then they came over.she said she thinks maybe they came to see their sister or cousin and decided to run with her to keep her company (it wasn’t a short race).

i think that is an incredibly sweet and innocent interpretation of the events on her behalf.

ive picked my niece up from school, I’ve seen the children in her class (this child is from another school). There are boys with long hair, girls who are more tomboyish and wear trousers every day and have short hair. You can easily tell their sex and she is very aware that not everyone conforms to gender stereotypes and wouldn’t be confused by a tomboyish girl.

She might not be but as lots of us have told you it happens all the time.

BandicootCrash · 27/09/2023 20:30

When I was 9 I had an awful "princess Di" gone wrong haircut. Coupled with a permanently grumpy expression, and a fairly substantial physique, I was almost entirely mistaken for a boy for about 3 months.

Maybe no one ever got close enough to smell me though.....?

MapleSyrupWaffles · 27/09/2023 20:27

I don't think you should have to ask her to explain 'how she knows'. I mean, perhaps a quick chat to make sure she isn't just going from hair style/clothes/shoes etc, OK, but beyond that, I'm not sure I could explain 'how I know' someone is a woman/girl when they might have quite an adrogynous shape, short hair, non-gendered clothing etc. if I'm not seeing them without clothes, but yet I still generally can tell. I accept that I can't always tell perfectly, but on the whole - you can just 'tell' and I couldn't put it into words exactly. And I definitely wouldn't want to make a young child try to put it into words, and to give them the idea that there are specific things that are worn/done etc that determine that and that can be pointed out. It's more subtle than that, and a combination of a lot of factors, but it does come back to recognising a pattern of body shape, gait, smell, features, and lots of other aspects. They quite probably did 'just know', and won't/can't tell you any more precisely than that.

Of course they could be wrong, and it isn't always possible to tell for sure with anyone, especially pre-pubescent children. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were right.

Original poster

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 20:25

We did gently question how they knew it was a boy but they were looking at us like we were mad and saying ‘because it was a boy’.

my niece has since said that she saw the child earlier on standing with the boys group of her year group who were getting ready to race and then they came over.she said she thinks maybe they came to see their sister or cousin and decided to run with her to keep her company (it wasn’t a short race).

i think that is an incredibly sweet and innocent interpretation of the events on her behalf.

ive picked my niece up from school, I’ve seen the children in her class (this child is from another school). There are boys with long hair, girls who are more tomboyish and wear trousers every day and have short hair. You can easily tell their sex and she is very aware that not everyone conforms to gender stereotypes and wouldn’t be confused by a tomboyish girl.

OP posts:

Mammillaria · 27/09/2023 20:25

A neighbour's DD went to my DS's primary school and was frequently mistaken for a boy by children and parents alike (to her delight apparently). She has an androgynous name, and often went by a very masculine nickname.

She identified as a boy for a while in her teens and, to my delight, I recently noticed she is back to using female pronouns.

At no point throughout this has she ever deviated from her very boyish style, although she was recognisable as female from about 11 years old.

TLDR: I knew a girl with a boyish nickname who had a short haircut, wore the 'boys' uniform and absolutely 100% used to get mistaken for a boy by children and adults when in primary school!

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 20:17

IThoughtTerryWoganWasMyDad · 27/09/2023 20:04

I think you'll find to those of us that were tomboys growing up and constantly "misgendered" that you are gaslighting us.
Both teachers and other pupils mistook me for a boy, don't call me a liar again.

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This.

I do wonder how the "you can always tell" people explain how women are ever mistaken for the opposite sex. When I cut my hair short I am, on a relatively regular basis, mistaken for male by strangers. I think this is because I am fairly androgynous physically. I am taller than average with a flat chest and wide shoulders and narrow hips I also have a brow ridge and a prominent nose. Clearly some people get it wrong from time to time. Why is this so controversial?

beastlyslumber · 27/09/2023 20:16

RoyalCorgi · 27/09/2023 19:39

Will people please stop gaslighting the OP, or at least gaslighting her niece by proxy?

Children know how to tell the difference between boys and girls. Guess what, even if a girl has short hair, they can still tell it's a girl. Boys and girls look different, as you all know perfectly well. Just stop it.

Exactly. Ffs this thread is a mess.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/09/2023 20:15

And this is what happens when the social contract breaks down. That is, the acknowledgement that girls and boys are different and that sport (and other areas) are separated on the basis of sex. People become suspicious, stop trusting the honesty and integrity of officials and assume that people are lying.
Pretending that people can change sex and shamefully allowing children to be involved in the charade, has been a completely regressive & retrograde step for society, baking in unfairness and discrimination - especially for girls and women.
We'll never know but what a shame for all those children involved.

IThoughtTerryWoganWasMyDad · 27/09/2023 20:04

RoyalCorgi · 27/09/2023 19:39

Will people please stop gaslighting the OP, or at least gaslighting her niece by proxy?

Children know how to tell the difference between boys and girls. Guess what, even if a girl has short hair, they can still tell it's a girl. Boys and girls look different, as you all know perfectly well. Just stop it.

I think you'll find to those of us that were tomboys growing up and constantly "misgendered" that you are gaslighting us.
Both teachers and other pupils mistook me for a boy, don't call me a liar again.

Signalbox · 27/09/2023 19:54

RoyalCorgi · 27/09/2023 19:39

Will people please stop gaslighting the OP, or at least gaslighting her niece by proxy?

Children know how to tell the difference between boys and girls. Guess what, even if a girl has short hair, they can still tell it's a girl. Boys and girls look different, as you all know perfectly well. Just stop it.

So I wonder why girls with short hair get mis-sexed then?

I did as a child. I do now as an adult if I wear my hair short.

IWilloBeACervix · 27/09/2023 19:52

The problem here is that OP isn’t able to say to her niece that it’s not possible that they would let a boy run, and win, in the girls race.

It could be a girl (like my short-haired, trouser wearing dd) but it could also be a boy, and asking for the truth won’t necessarily give you the truth.

RoyalCorgi · 27/09/2023 19:39

Will people please stop gaslighting the OP, or at least gaslighting her niece by proxy?

Children know how to tell the difference between boys and girls. Guess what, even if a girl has short hair, they can still tell it's a girl. Boys and girls look different, as you all know perfectly well. Just stop it.

Iwasafool · 27/09/2023 19:38

Sprogonthetyne · 27/09/2023 19:30

At my kids school both sexes go in wereing the same joggers/t-shirt & school jumper on pe day. Some boys have long hair, some girls have short hair. It's still clear as day which are boys or girls.

Well isn't that good for your school but it isn't always like that. I used to be a leader at beavers, we had one girl who was always mistaken for a boy.

It is bloody rude to be going round deciding what sex another child is. One of my DDs best friends at primary was a boy who people frequently mistook for a girl. It happens, no big deal.