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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Froodwithatowel · 26/09/2023 21:13

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:05

Single sex spaces aren’t a thing. Except perhaps in a medical setting.

Ok.

If you're going to identify as single sex spaces not existing, then I identify as this whole gender thing not existing. <shrug>

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:13

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:10

If I were to suggest that trans people should do this instead you would accuse me of believing that they shouldn't be allowed to exist in society.

The double standards are sickening.

The difference is that you are trying to prevent people from using the toilet, they are not.

Froodwithatowel · 26/09/2023 21:12

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:07

Everyone has a right to self exclude.

If people can like it or lump it, then trans people can do this as well as women. They can 'reframe their trauma' and so on as they are so often told.

Or, we can accept that different people need different things and create third spaces, to be used by those who choose to do so, and everyone's access and feelings and identity choices and inclusion needs are equally valued.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:11

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:10

Gender is in everything we see. I would love it if gender wasn’t real.

Well then I have some wonderful news for you.

It isn't.

It's made up bullshit.

No one has a personality which either matches or clashes with any particular type of genitalia.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:10

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:07

Everyone has a right to self exclude.

If I were to suggest that trans people should do this instead you would accuse me of believing that they shouldn't be allowed to exist in society.

The double standards are sickening.

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:10

Gender is in everything we see. I would love it if gender wasn’t real.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:08

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:05

Single sex spaces aren’t a thing. Except perhaps in a medical setting.

Of course they are.

They are currently under threat because a small number of people want to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex and so they are trying to pretend that single gender spaces are a thing.

But gender isn't real.

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:07

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:06

What about women's comfort?

There are a great many women who will self exclude from these spaces if there is a risk of them encountering a stranger's penis.

Does their comfort not matter to you at all?

What are the criteria for deciding whose comfort matters and whose doesn't?

Everyone has a right to self exclude.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:06

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:05

Yeah, I totally disagree.
I’m gender critical, but we currently live in a world where gender matters a whole lot. People should be able to find their comfort within that.

What about women's comfort?

There are a great many women who will self exclude from these spaces if there is a risk of them encountering a stranger's penis.

Does their comfort not matter to you at all?

What are the criteria for deciding whose comfort matters and whose doesn't?

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:05

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:04

So are you arguing for the abolition of single sex spaces altogether then? Just mix men and women in together because this will cause no issues for anyone at all?

Single sex spaces aren’t a thing. Except perhaps in a medical setting.

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:05

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:01

Also toilets, changing rooms and showers, rape crisis groups, women's shelters, sports.

Sex = highly relevant.
Gender = meh.

Yeah, I totally disagree.
I’m gender critical, but we currently live in a world where gender matters a whole lot. People should be able to find their comfort within that.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:04

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:02

Likewise!

So are you arguing for the abolition of single sex spaces altogether then? Just mix men and women in together because this will cause no issues for anyone at all?

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:02

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:02

Why would it? Can't they just go in, pee, wash their hands and leave?

Likewise!

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:02

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:00

How strange and awkward that would be!

Why would it? Can't they just go in, pee, wash their hands and leave?

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 21:01

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:59

For sure! Gynaecology, childbirth etc.

Also toilets, changing rooms and showers, rape crisis groups, women's shelters, sports.

Sex = highly relevant.
Gender = meh.

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 21:00

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:59

So if trans women are perfectly safe using men's toilets, what's the issue? Why can't they use the men's toilets?

How strange and awkward that would be!

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:59

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:57

There are plenty of situations where sex is relevant.

There are literally no situations in which there is ever a need for a "single gender space" because gender is imaginary made up nonsense.

For sure! Gynaecology, childbirth etc.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:59

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:58

No! Lol

So if trans women are perfectly safe using men's toilets, what's the issue? Why can't they use the men's toilets?

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:58

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:57

I’m not suggesting that women share with men when there is a men’s toilet and a women’s toilet. That would be very socially awkward.

You just asked why women need single sex spaces and now you're saying it would be socially awkward for men and women to use the same space.

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:58

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:56

So it's not about safety at all then?

No! Lol

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:57

I’m not suggesting that women share with men when there is a men’s toilet and a women’s toilet. That would be very socially awkward.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:57

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:56

The truth is that there is nothing to be educated on. None of you have an actual reason why single sex, rather than gender, spaces would ever be necessary in a shopping centre or gym.

There are plenty of situations where sex is relevant.

There are literally no situations in which there is ever a need for a "single gender space" because gender is imaginary made up nonsense.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:56

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:53

Why do they need to be attacked ?

So it's not about safety at all then?

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:56

Froodwithatowel · 26/09/2023 20:49

If they had respect for women they wouldn't invade their space knowing that as they walk in to do them in their own way, and have their preferred choice of all the spaces to live their best life in, some women are forced to walk out and have nothing at all.

I'm absolutely over the 'lovely trans friend' bit, I have no time or respect for anyone who thinks other women and their exclusion don't matter when it comes to enabling a man. If you seriously aren't aware that some women cannot share mixed sex spaces then I think the vile phrase is 'educate yourself', but how you've managed to stay this naive baffles me. Perhaps you have not 'hung out' with a particularly diverse group of women.

Edited

The truth is that there is nothing to be educated on. None of you have an actual reason why single sex, rather than gender, spaces would ever be necessary in a shopping centre or gym.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 20:56

fionamattel · 26/09/2023 20:48

I have been accused on this thread of repeating the reason for that too much.

No, the question I am asking you is, if women have no real reason not to share toilets with men, why can't trans women share toilets with men?