Trans: the new ideology of the ruling class (article)

I mean, gender critical beliefs are the literal opposite of what that poster believes. We think that gender isn't important and sex is.

But then I suppose a proponent of gender identity theory identifying themselves as gender critical makes no less sense than a male person identifying themselves as female. They live in topsy-turvy land and it's safest to assume that anything they say might be the literal opposite of what they actually mean.

And that, for me, encapsulates why I can't vote for any party which supports this belief system. I wouldn't have a problem with politicians saying things like, "Trans people are very vulnerable and we must support them." Or if they said, "It is very important for trans people to be legally recognised as the sex they identify as rather than their sex recorded at birth, the current process for doing this is too long and arduous and must be simplified", I fundamentally disagree with that because I believe the Gender Recognition Act is bad law, but I respect someone's right to express an opposing point of view in a sensible way. But when you have mainstream left and centre-left politicians saying, "trans women are women, no debate, and yes this applies to prison too", or saying that it is factually inaccurate and wrong to say that only women have a cervix, we are out of the realms of civilised disagreement and well into dystopia. Voting for people who want to criminalise telling the truth strikes me as an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Yes it's a shame - I made my comment about anti-Woke tribalism just as a TRA arrived to exercise tribalist arguments. I did lol when he/she proclaimed to be gender critical but also that gender is SO important and affects EVERYTHING. Talk about a tell.

That's why I ducked out.

That person claimed to be gender critical and then later a radical feminist, whilst trotting out all the basic TRA tropes, refusing to define a woman, saying it was about more than being female but refusing to say what, and coming out with the most absurd double standards that anyone actually arguing from a be kind perspective would be ashamed and embarrassed to say out loud (e.g. if you don't think trans women should be using women's toilets you don't think they should be allowed to exist, but women who need single sex spaces are free to stay home).

My guess is they were just here to derail the thread and ideally provoke people into using banned acronyms or breaking the no troll hunting rule.

I agree Minty, and to me it smacks of a not dissimilar lazy tribalism to the type O'Neil is attacking. There's a line between logically dismantling an argument, and just gleefully attacking an enemy. How is continuously banging on about "The Woke" going to do anything but increase tribalism?

Sometimes I wonder if people who enjoy seething over the evil Wokes realise how much they sound like the people seething over the evil Transphobes. There's a point where honest rebuttal can tip into the temptation to construct straw men to make the enemy sound even more ridiculous.

Ok. I'm not asking for a quippy phrase, or everything about a woman. You can tell what I'm asking by the words I used to ask.

When you use the word woman, are you talking about a person that is different from a man in literally any single way? If so, can you say one single way in which such a person is different from a man?

Remember, I do not understand what you mean when you say "woman", so you can't simply repeat that. "Woman" to me means female which you say is wrong.

It really seems to me that you do actually mean "female" but are not honest enough to say so.
Or you are not honest to say "person who has long hair" or "person that likes cats" or "person who wears certain clothes" or "person who played with dolls as a child" or whatever it actually is that, to you, is the distinguishing factor between women and men (yes these examples are odd but I have no idea what you mean by "woman" if not "female".

You seem quite equadious about this issue - would you say that's accurate?

Yeah, a success derail, I am sad to say.

I was reading this thread in fascination, and awe at some of the insights, but unfortunately it has become very dull.

Me, I think that a woman is an adult human female, no matter what she does or wears, so I don't have this problem.

It just used to be that simple, didn't it? And it still is.

Are you actually taking the piss?
It would be strange and awkward for tw to be in the male toilets but not strange or awkward for women to be confronted with men dressed as women when they are trying to piss?
Can you even hear yourself?
Plus men sexually assault women, so it's not so much single sex as safe for females. After dignity which applies to men too.

Nope. You'd be living as a man in their society, which makes you a man.

You said, "living as a woman in our society makes you a woman".

This is the logical consequence of that premise. If comportment to social roles defines your sex, then that has to be a universal rule, no matter the nation. Your personal opinion on it is irrelevant and your attachment to your previous status in the country 3000 miles away would be immaterial.

The sinks are not in the toilet cubicles, and when you have period flooding you need to wash. I suspect you think 'period flooding' is getting a bit of blood on your legs which you can wipe off with toilet paper.It really isn't.

I will add that it definitely has more to do with having been treated like a woman than anything physical.

No, that’s not my premise. I have my own culture’s perception of gender, that doesn’t instantly shed when I enter this imaginary country.

My own understanding of my womanhood is very much tied in with my biology, having been raised a girl and treated like a girl / woman by those around me my entire life. It is different for others.

The cubicles are there for a reason.

That’s really, really wild and unusual ! Most would be very taken aback to see a naked woman washing herself in a toilet sink.
Have you never been arrested or had someone come to check on you for that ?

Where are women supposed to deal with period flooding, in your opinion? Its what the women's toilets are for. You don't think its appropriate (you're in a minority) so what's you solution?

No, I listed that as a reason why someone would not want to do something.

If you were raised in that culture, you'd do as a female person does there, making you a woman there and a man here.

If being a woman or being a man is purely defined by comparing your behaviour according to external cultural norms, then it has to follow that whether you are a man or a woman changes as you cross national borders.

This was your premise.

Me, I think that a woman is an adult human female, no matter what she does or wears, so I don't have this problem.

Just leave people alone if they are leaving you alone.

If I was raised in that culture, then yes!

P.S. If I migrated to a country with different gender expectations I would still very much be a woman in ways beyond my genitalia.

Nah, you'd be a man by your own reasoning and you know it. If socialisation makes you a woman, then you'd be a man in the other country.

Never mind misread.

It would be socially awkward to very obviously be living as a woman and to choose the men’s room over the women’s. Socially awkward for that person.