Trans: the new ideology of the ruling class (article)

What you are calling 'gender' is just individual differences in personal characteristics. Women are varied in personality, characteristics and expression - the onlyb thing they all have in common with each other is the fact of their sex and the consequences of this sex in their daily life and in their culture or society.

Gnder role differences between cultures exist everywhere , but always what remains, in every culture, is a demarcation between the sexes based on biological function and characteristics.

Why is it women who must change their position to accommodate men?

a person using the word ‘uptight’ is such a massive red flag

it’s only ever used by people who want you to change your boundaries

That's what I can never understand. Why does a transwoman's desire to use the women's space matter more than a woman's desire for a single sex space?

You ae not a feminist if you think sex is irrelevant. Feminism is based on women's rights and dignity as adult human females.

Feminism centres women.

Yes, why can't trans women just be less uptight about using the numerous facilities which already exist for people of their own biological sex?

Or doesn't it work that way round?

Whether or not you think other women should feel "uptight" or not is not relevant. Most women do feel more comfortable and safer in single sex spaces in certain types of situation. Usually when they are dealing with the functions of the body - which in all people is sexed.

You should campaign for additional gender neutral facilities rather than imposing your moral judgemnts about how other should or should not feel. that way everyone could get their needs for comfort and dignity met.

You forgot "reframe their trauma".

I had reason to go in to a women's toilet last week. I had a stone in the foot of my tights and needed to go into the ladies to take my tights off and remove it.
It might sound trivial to you - but I think most women would feel uncomfortable lifting their skirt and removing their tights in the presence of strange men.

Women's toilets exist for reasons of privacy and dignity as much as anything. There are many reasons a woman may use a toilet facility - and most of them have some connection to her body, and particularly her sexed body.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

What do you mean by " gender matters a whole lot". Can you give some examples?

And what do you mean by. " people finding their comfort within that?

My reading of that is that you think women should have to cope with their feelings of discomfort or threat and somehow vanish them away because that's just the new reality. Sort of like women need to 'up their game' and 'get with the show.'

I was thinking of bacterial infections but if you were really unlucky you could probably give yourself HIV doing that.

Yes, absolutely! Which would be quite possible, I imagine.

It would serve these people right if they gave themselves a nasty infection.

Bloody hell, @untranchable ! I read most of the first page... 😡

I had no idea. I suppose I should have guessed.

All of this.

I love how the Righteous poster has shone blazing sunlight on how The Right Side of History operates. A previously interesting discussion thread, derailed. More, please! The sunlight, it's so beautiful.

#OperationLetThemSpeak

There's a much worse reason why some of these men demand access to the women's loos 🤢

On the off chance that anyone was convinced by our ‘gender critical as they come but living as a woman makes you a woman’ visitor

Im a radical feminist but believe that you should pee where you feel comfortable was quite the claim wasn't it?

What's the definition of a liberal feminist again?

I'm not sure that that is accurate.

On the off chance that anyone was convinced by our ‘gender critical as they come but living as a woman makes you a woman’ visitor

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

we used to be allowed to know that if a man goes into a place where women are in a state of undress, he’s there to have a perve in some way

they still want to have a perve. We’ve just got people like our visitor trying to persuade us to pretend otherwise

to quote South Korean feminists, my life is not your porn

'I don't think...'

It's always about belief. And the I bit. The inherently selfish nature of this whole argument where the impact on others isn't acknowledged.

Why should other people's beliefs be imposed on others?

If we follow the principle of respect for others and their beliefs what should happen?

Women who want single sex spaces should have them. Transwomen should respect the single sex spaces and keep the fuck out of them. And women and transwomen who believe in gendered spaced or gender neutral spaces can piss away in them to their hearts content.

But no. Just because men believe they can become women, women's beliefs can be trampled all over. And transwomen want to use women to validate themselves.

The point being that an empty women's toilet is just a toilet - it needs a woman to make it a women's toilet. And they are being used, often without consent, to validate the feelings of males.

And it's not just about womens beliefs either. There's plenty of research on single sex spaces and how they are safer for women and why they are recommended in the developing world.

There is the privacy and dignity argument too.

Not to mention how some women don't actually have this luxury of choice, if others decide to piss wherever they like because their religion and community makes this dangerous for them to do so. So they self exclude and lose freedom.

All the arguments about transwomen using women's toilets are about how it's too dangerous to pee next to men - but women aren't allowed to use this argument. Or that impinges on their dignity and privacy - again women aren't allowed to use that argument.

But this is just ignorable to some arrogant dick who comes along to illustrate the point in the original post about entitlement and argues the point.

What it comes down to is that women pushing this and transwomen railroading this, have absolutely no respect for anyone but themselves and think others feelings are below contempt.

We see you.

Predictably #OperationLetThemSpeak demonstrated the usual tropes of "you don't know any trans people, don't like trans people, can't recognise trans people, don't think they should exist," oh and toilets (again)
The lack of any intellectual arguments about why men become women when they say they are etc is stark. I agree with @MargotBamborough, politicians are massively responsible for shifting society "out of the realms of civilised disagreement and well into dystopia".

It is very simple to me - biological women should be allowed their own spaces for these kind of private things. Also if someone is trans there is usually a disabled toilet they can use so they do seem to make a lot of fuss about this kind of thing. Biological women will not be shutting up about these issues where they damage or harm women or their rights so we trans people affronted by that will just need to learn to live with it.

I don't think I have ever read anyone on mumsnet however who is anti trans or hates them or wants English law changed back to before you could change gender legally via the English (not Scottish) way.,