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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Census ‘hugely overstated’ trans population - Telegraph article

107 replies

xxyzz · 24/09/2023 00:29

Census 'hugely overstated' trans population (telegraph.co.uk)

or

Census 'hugely overstated' trans population (archive.ph)

The Office for National Statistics “hugely overestimated” the number of transgender people in the UK, Whitehall sources have claimed, as the body admitted it could have carried out “additional probing” before releasing the controversial data.

An official inquiry by the Office for Statistics Regulation (OSR) into the census finding that 260,000 people identified as transgender has drawn up several “lessons learned” from the way the data was handled by the ONS.

They include a conclusion the ONS should do more to communicate “uncertainty” about the data and should have sought external “quality assurance”.

Twitter thread here: Professor Alice Sullivan on X: ""The Office for National Statistics “hugely overestimated” the number of transgender people in the UK, Whitehall sources have claimed, as the body admitted it could have carried out “additional probing” before releasing the controversial data" t.co/kNtOqExFSq" / X (twitter.com)

Census ‘hugely overstated’ trans population

Office for National Statistics may have lost its 'credibility' to accurately record sex and gender, suggests Whitehall source

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/23/census-hugely-overstated-trans-population/

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Froodwithatowel · 29/01/2024 16:28

It depends, I suppose, on whether you want to help create the illusion that the male person involved would like you to, or be comprehensible, realistic and with some respect for your listener.

DeeLusional · 29/01/2024 16:28

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 29/01/2024 15:04

Really, that sounds like a really roundabout way of doing it. I know we've all heard of questionnaires asking about "gender identity" so I'm surprised they've not just done that. Are they planning on presenting the data that way "50% of she/hers did their A-Levels, compared to 45% of he/hims - and 80% of they/thems! Ze/zirs were also likely to complete further education, with German being a popular subject choice..."

Quite. I've seen "How do you think of yourself: Male, Female, or in some other way". Also "Do you consider yourself to be Trans or have a Trans history.". The Millenium Cohort Study is the first one I've seen asking about pronouns.

NecessaryScene · 29/01/2024 16:22

Well, how are you going to explain what a 'transwoman' is to someone with English as a second language? Or who is not very literate, or who is not conversant with recent developments in 'queering academia and challenging heteronormativity'?

Or a 4- or 7-year-old, thinking of another thread.

ArthurbellaScott · 29/01/2024 16:18

Well, how are you going to explain what a 'transwoman' is to someone with English as a second language? Or who is not very literate, or who is not conversant with recent developments in 'queering academia and challenging heteronormativity'?

'A man who feels like a woman'?

But we're not allowed to say that. The word 'man' is forbidden.

Try again.

'A woman whose body is different from her feelings'?

'A woman who is unhappy with her body'?

'A woman with men's genitals'?!

Froodwithatowel · 29/01/2024 16:14

It's all hugely exclusionary.

Men in women's spaces excludes women, from many vulnerable, marginalised groups without a powerful and very shouty lobby with flags to fight their equality. It harms them. It subordinates them. It shuts them out of society and says they're not worth access to the resources their taxes pay for.

The fucking about with language to get men enjoying womenhood as a theme park excludes women, not just women who are EAL speakers or new to this country, but women with literacy difficulties, learning difficulties, many other needs.

And men call this 'inclusion'. When they want to be manipulative bastards and oppress and harm women for their own benefit.

CantDealwithChristmas · 29/01/2024 15:50

Speaking as an immigrant. I have said from the start that the whole trans / pronoun madness thing is incredibly discriminatory against people whose first language is not English.

This census screw-up is a good example. There are fairly significant recent-immigrant groups in parts of the UK, especially London boroughs and the Midlands, who are fairly culturally insular (as recently immigrated peoples have tended to be throughout history) and whose English is not yet fluent. They porobably have no idea what a 'trans woman' is.

Is it an older woman? An unmarried woman? A pregnant woman? A menopausal woman? Ah, that must be it, well I'll tick that box then.

The confusion is not helped by the fact that even fully integrated, fluent English speakers can't agree on what a trans woman is e.g.

  • Stonewall thinks it's any man who ever liked the colour pink or thought about cross-dressing, ever
  • Nicola Sturgeon thinks it's any man who puts on a wig, unless of course he commits a sex crime in the wig, in which case he's a fake trans, which is somehow different from a true trans
  • Judith Butler thinks it's a performance
  • Monroe Bergdorf thinks it's an ineffable inside feeling
  • Dawn Butler and Layla Moran think the soul is gendered and the body isn't, and only certain very special people can see what gender the soul is (needless to say, Dawn and Layla are two of these very rare and special people)
  • Kier Starmer thinks it's a tiny population of very vulnerable people which silly women should stop getting their knickers in a twist about
  • Rachel McKinnon thinks trans women have ladybrains and, subject to the correct doses of hormones, the body will soon follow
  • Owen Jones thinks trans women are much better than real women, unless of course he's searching for a broody lesbian

If native speakers are this confused, what hope is there for a poor woman just off the plane from Poland or Pakistan?

WallaceinAnderland · 29/01/2024 15:19

Is it really a place where GC people feel safe and can bring their 'full self' to work?

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 29/01/2024 15:04

DeeLusional · 29/01/2024 14:54

The former. They don't pick out individual case studies. Not for publication, at any rate.

Really, that sounds like a really roundabout way of doing it. I know we've all heard of questionnaires asking about "gender identity" so I'm surprised they've not just done that. Are they planning on presenting the data that way "50% of she/hers did their A-Levels, compared to 45% of he/hims - and 80% of they/thems! Ze/zirs were also likely to complete further education, with German being a popular subject choice..."

DeeLusional · 29/01/2024 14:54

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 29/01/2024 14:31

Is this for the purposes of analysing the pronoun choices of the cohort, or is it for editorial reasons, i.e. if they pick out case studies in the write-up and want to refer to the subject by their preferred pronoun?

The former. They don't pick out individual case studies. Not for publication, at any rate.

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 29/01/2024 14:31

DeeLusional · 28/01/2024 10:51

There is a cohort study of about 13000 people born in 2000-2001 run by University College London which has been carried out roughly every 3 years since they were born. This year the cohort members are being asked what their pronouns are.

Is this for the purposes of analysing the pronoun choices of the cohort, or is it for editorial reasons, i.e. if they pick out case studies in the write-up and want to refer to the subject by their preferred pronoun?

Slothtoes · 29/01/2024 12:43

I hope the answers to asking people about their use of pronouns are not overstated by UCL.
As we all know, some people use pronouns to signal ‘allyship’ but that doesn’t mean they are trans or non binary themselves, for example

DeeLusional · 28/01/2024 10:51

There is a cohort study of about 13000 people born in 2000-2001 run by University College London which has been carried out roughly every 3 years since they were born. This year the cohort members are being asked what their pronouns are.

Froodwithatowel · 28/01/2024 10:42

Interesting this is out in the same week where a rape crisis centre had to admit in court that they couldn't do their core brief or the law or treat people equally because it might be or was too upsetting for their TQ+ staff.

Questions are going to have to be asked about compatibility and why capacity isn't being better managed when it comes to TQ+ employees if this goes on being used as an excuse in massive cock ups.

Curtainscoper · 28/01/2024 09:21

And, if they care about staff well-being, what about the well-being of any GC ONS staffers?

The question as drafted makes no sense for the GC. And it cannot be safe - in employment, rather than emotional, terms - to speak out at ONS about data quality in this domain if scrutiny is seen as harmful.

I hope the SEEN network exists at ONS to give those staff some support in standing up for, well, the Civil Service code for one thing. Honesty, integrity, objectivity and impartiality. Remember those, ONS?

RethinkingLife · 27/01/2024 20:48

You'd swear Civil Servants in the ONS had never heard of the Nolan Principles of Public Life. Why did Woolford neither make a declaration of interest nor recuse Woolford's self from involvement?

Maya Forstater, the executive director of the gender-critical campaign group, Sex Matters, suggested that Ms Woolford was caught in a conflict of interests because “the same person responsible for defending the <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/RLqjR/www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2023/09/25/trans-rights-accuracy-census-office-of-national-statistics/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">unreliable census data on transgender identification to the public and regulator also leads the ONS’s internal transactivist lobby group”.
“Instead of upholding the principle of people who develop national statistics being truthful, impartial and independent, the ONS and its senior leadership is allowing emotional blackmail, compelled speech and ideological beliefs to corrupt work of vital importance to the UK,” she added.
And Michael Biggs, an Oxford University sociology professor who was one of the first to query the ONS data, said: “It is troubling that the ONS has treated scrutiny of its data as a threat to its staff.”

popebishop · 20/11/2023 17:43

Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?

This is a baffling question that can't make up its mind whether sex and gender are the same thing or not. It assumes gender can be male or female, but they are sexes.

Is your age the same as your dress size? Is your race the same as your nationality? Is your star sign the same as your first name?

UtopiaPlanitia · 20/11/2023 17:21

The ONS Gender Identity question 'Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?' is tough for people with English as a first language to answer too - I mean, I don’t have a gender identity so neither 'No' nor 'Yes' would be accurate answers.

The question is a tortured use of English grammar and sentence construction too. Couldn’t they just ask 'Do you consider yourself to be transgender?' with a yes or no choice?

Accurate stats are more important than ideological framing, surely.

RiotAndAlarum · 20/11/2023 09:13

topnoddy · 20/11/2023 08:10

Ah but how many Jedi's are there this time around ?

Hahaha, my husband was a Jedi in 2011, but clearly his Force had run out by 2021!

topnoddy · 20/11/2023 08:10

Ah but how many Jedi's are there this time around ?

ArthurbellaScott · 20/11/2023 07:43

Has anyone in government and the Upper echelons considered what the effects are on a society to have formerly respected institutions beclown themselves?

Anyone done a risk assessment of 'queering data'?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/11/2023 07:38

Good to see that they've asked for an investigation. It's too important to allow this nonsense to stand - especially as the ONS had no coherent explanation. These organisations need to face consequences for their institutional capture.

VWdieselnightmare · 05/11/2023 16:15

LoobiJee · 03/11/2023 22:57

“The Office for National Statistics has corrected the census after it mistakenly inflated Britain’s “pansexual” population by more than half.
The latest census in 2021 had claimed that 112,000 people in Britain identified as “pansexual”, where one is attracted to people of all genders.
But this was incorrect and it has since been changed to 48,000 people.”

The figure they included (112,000) was over twice as high as the correct figure.

They inflated the figure by a lot more than half.

The one person I know who describes herself as pansexual is a youngish bisexual woman who has relationships with men and women, sometimes two or more at a time. Her most infamous relationship was with a woman and two brothers. At one point they all lived together and shared one giant bed. I always wanted to ask whether the two brothers were having sex with each other too, to complete the convention-busting nature of the household, but thought that might make me look gauche.

Her definition of pansexuality was about non-monogamy, non-coupledom and multiple partners of varying sexuality. I've never heard her use the word gender. But she might well have ticked the pansexual box.