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Original poster

Scottish women - speak up now while you still can.

212 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 21/09/2023 12:40

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotland-set-up-new-30983808

'Police Scotland is setting up a dedicated hate crime unit ahead of Humza Yousaf's hugely controversial new laws coming into force early next year, it can be revealed.
The unit is expected to go live in November and training of the force's 16,400 officers gets underway in December in preparation for the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act being implemented in early 2024. The legislation consolidates existing law and extends protection for vulnerable groups with a new offence of "stirring up hatred".
Under the Act, offences are considered "aggravated" – which could influence sentencing – if they involve prejudice on the basis of age, disability, race, religion, sexual orientation, transgender identity or variations in sex characteristics. Critics fear a disproportionate amount of police time will be diverted into policing toxic gender culture wars, with an over emphasis on "pursuing hurtful words but not violent conduct".
They claim the new laws will also have a "chilling effect" on free speech and warn that campaigners supporting women's rights may find themselves facing accusations of transphobia. Helen Joyce, director of advocacy with human rights group Sex Matters, said: "The establishment of a new, dedicated hate crime unit at Police Scotland sends a sinister message to those who advocate for women's and children's rights.'

Police Scotland set up new unit to tackle 'hate crime' such as misgendering

The dedicated unit will go live in November as Humza Yousaf's hated hate crime laws – which could see people criminalised for what they think or what they say in their own homes – will finally come into effect in 2024

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotland-set-up-new-30983808

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Thread gallery
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littlbrowndog · 02/10/2023 13:33

It is worrying arabella

and bonkers. I don’t think a lot of people in Scotland know about this.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 02/10/2023 11:11

'Section 28 was a walk in the park in comparison to Yousaf’s authoritarian silencing of women and LGB people. You can’t protect what you fail to define, and you can’t argue a defence that doesn’t exist in law. All of this and the potential for state intrusion into fundamental freedoms and human rights should deeply worry everyone in Scotland.'

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 02/10/2023 11:09

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23826297.neale-hanvey-hate-crime-act-seeks-silence-women-lgb-people/

'In a few short weeks, the Scottish Government’s Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 will come into effect and my world and that of women up and down Scotland will enter a very dark place. Our contribution to political discourse will not only be ignored by government, it may cease to be lawful. Discussing the fundamental characteristic that defines us, our sex, is likely to be considered an aggravated hate crime.

Neale Hanvey, MP

Neale Hanvey: The Hate Crime Act should deeply worry all women and LGB people

I MAKE no apology for what I am about to write because it may be the last time I am able to do so. In a few short weeks, the Scottish Government’s…

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23826297.neale-hanvey-hate-crime-act-seeks-silence-women-lgb-people

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Kucinghitam · 24/09/2023 17:57

bar pictures of him with ten buttered choirboys appearing in The Sun

Sorry but GrinGrinGrinGrin @mach2

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 16:25

Thelnebriati · 24/09/2023 12:24

The belief that 'If it was that bad someone would do something about it' is the first part of the problem; and the second is when people say 'someone' they actually mean 'someone else'.

Yes.

While this Bill was being debated in the Scotparl, the police, legal bodies, the press, various organisations and lots of individuals all pointed out loudly and repeatedly the flaws and issues with it.

I honestly didn't think it would go through. For some reason I had also thought it would go the way of the Section 35 GRR Bill.

But here we are.

Policing and Crime Act 2017

An Act to make provision for collaboration between the emergency services; to make provision about the handling of police complaints and other matters relating to police conduct and to make further provision about the Independent Police Complaints Comm...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/part/4/chapter/8

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dcbc1234 · 24/09/2023 16:04

mach2 · 24/09/2023 10:04

"It also sets up a scenario where friends, neighbours, and family members may be reporting each other for wrongthink. It really does have the ring of the Stasi about it."

Very much this. If Starmzy shows signs of moving this way (he - bar pictures of him with ten buttered choirboys appearing in The Sun - is likely going to win the next coronation election) there needs to be mass revolt.

This and I will probably stop posting on Mumsnet completely. I know this allows them to win but forewarned is forearmed.

Thelnebriati · 24/09/2023 12:24

The belief that 'If it was that bad someone would do something about it' is the first part of the problem; and the second is when people say 'someone' they actually mean 'someone else'.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 24/09/2023 10:49

i think that these proposed laws, like the gender recognition bill, are so bonkers that the general population hasn’t quite grasped just how bonkers they are. And any attempt to explain is dismissed as fearmongering. Because there is still a general assumption that “they” (ie the government, the police etc) wouldn’t be so mad. And that the UK is still a sane, rational, democratic place, and that kind of thing just doesn’t happen Here.

There are some days that I feel like reality itself changed around 2014-2016 and none else can see it yet. We really are headed for some kind of authoritarian future unless we can find some way of stopping it.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 10:33

And yes, it will depend a bit on whom/what the police deem worthy of pursuit.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 10:31

Given that reports can be made anonymously, the possibilities of being reported maliciously are about equal for everyone, I imagine.

The likelihood of such perhaps does differ depending on what type of people and how many you have in your social circle.

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Froodwithatowel · 24/09/2023 10:15

ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 09:41

They may thigh rub. What they fail to grasp is that the law will present just as much a threat to them as to their imagined 'enemies'.

Show quote history

Will it though?

Or will this further the idea that some people get to use the law as their personal attack dog, and other people don't get even basic justice despite being entitled to it under law, and all based on whether they're in powerful categories or not?

We already have (in England) women spoken to by the police based on really spurious 'hate incident' reports such as stating reality, when those reports come from a group with power. Yet we know that women from a non-powerful group have shown police evidence of quite extreme terms of racial and homophobic abuse, with video evidence, and the police just shrugged. Because the offenses were being committed by people of power from a group the police have political affiliation and open bias to. One of those incidents is on film.

I'm not sure really how this is any different from Victorian times when the rich upper classes could get the servant class arrested because of their power, influence, money and who they were, and use it to keep lesser beings in their place. And if you drank at your club with the police inspector (as opposed to these days dancing with him at Pride) or swapped a Masonic handshake (these days wearing rainbow laces as the signal of Club Membership by the Right Sort) the law did what you said, instead of what was right.

I find it grimly amusing, as those busy fixing a very classist, oppressive, colonialist system in the UK are ones who would bore you to death about their righteousness and want all history exhibits labelled to the nth degree with how evil it was when someone else did it, because those people were other and not them, and were not entitled to treat others badly like they are. Its discouraging to realise so many people, including those in powerful positions, really are this thick .

mach2 · 24/09/2023 10:04

"It also sets up a scenario where friends, neighbours, and family members may be reporting each other for wrongthink. It really does have the ring of the Stasi about it."

Very much this. If Starmzy shows signs of moving this way (he - bar pictures of him with ten buttered choirboys appearing in The Sun - is likely going to win the next coronation election) there needs to be mass revolt.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 09:41

Kucinghitam · 24/09/2023 08:27

I'm just imagining TRSOH's thigh-rubbing Righteousness that went into drafting this legislation and their feverish euphoria at the thought of Bad People getting Smited.

They may thigh rub. What they fail to grasp is that the law will present just as much a threat to them as to their imagined 'enemies'.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 09:40

mach2 · 24/09/2023 07:30

The abolition of the dwelling defence is what I find most scary about this. It was possibly only that defence that prevented the autistic girl in Leeds from being charged with a crime.

It also sets up a scenario where friends, neighbours, and family members may be reporting each other for wrongthink. It really does have the ring of the Stasi about it.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 24/09/2023 09:38

EdithStourton · 23/09/2023 21:08

the perception of the victim or any other person is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident

Bloody hell, I can see why you have gone off on one here.

As soon as someone's 'perception' wins against reality or intent we are truly fucked.

Thanks. It's a bit easy to think I'm just going a bit mad and over exaggerating it.

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Froodwithatowel · 24/09/2023 08:31

Quite. We're going to need bigger boxes of kleenex.

Kucinghitam · 24/09/2023 08:27

I'm just imagining TRSOH's thigh-rubbing Righteousness that went into drafting this legislation and their feverish euphoria at the thought of Bad People getting Smited.

mach2 · 24/09/2023 07:30

The abolition of the dwelling defence is what I find most scary about this. It was possibly only that defence that prevented the autistic girl in Leeds from being charged with a crime.

Kinneddar · 24/09/2023 01:57

the perception of the victim or any other person is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident

Thats not new. That's been the case for a long time & it's ridiculous. If someone claims that they percieve the crime committed because of their race/gender etc its recorded as a hate crime. An example I remember is a number of cars being keyed in a car park. One owner said he'd been targeted because of his race. He hadn't. He so clearly hadn't. The little shits who caused the damage didn't know or care who owned the cars they scratched but because he (totally incorrectly) perceived it as being down to his race it was recorded as a hate crime

It's incidents like that that cause the hate crime figures to rise & realistically, be inaccurate

EdithStourton · 23/09/2023 21:08

the perception of the victim or any other person is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident

Bloody hell, I can see why you have gone off on one here.

As soon as someone's 'perception' wins against reality or intent we are truly fucked.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 23/09/2023 16:55

Pixiedust1234 · 23/09/2023 14:35

Perhaps the best way would be to accuse anonymously all the police officers in that unit of looking at others a bit funny. Let them tie themselves up in knots so they can't be unleashed against the general public.

That's covered.

Hate crime will not be tolerated and the principles of this guidance will apply as equally to police officers and staff members who are victims, as it does to members of the public. As a service, Police Scotland is committed to dealing appropriately with hate crime and hate incidents and all other forms of discrimination. It is vital that we provide the same high level of investigative process, respect and support to internal victims, as we provide to members of the public.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 23/09/2023 16:52

Oh, hey, it looks like you can report without naming a supposed victim.

Report from a TPR centre where the victim is anonymous:

That's handy. So long as you accuse the nasty perp of wrongthink, no need to produce a 'victim'?

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 23/09/2023 16:51

'A copy of all online hate crime reports should be e-mailed to the Diversity Unit'

For some reason they've redacted the details of the Diversity Unit. I'm wondering whether it's in Room 101, The Ministry of Love.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 23/09/2023 16:48

I am just going over the guidance again.

'There are currently five social groups protected under hate crime legislation:
· Disability or presumed disability (any disability including physical disability, learning disability and mental health).
· Race or presumed race (any racial group, ethnic background or national origin, including countries within the UK and Gypsy / Traveller groups).
· Religion or presumed religion (any religious group, including those who have no faith).
· Sexual orientation or presumed sexual orientation (sexual orientation towards persons of the same sex or of the opposite sex or towards both).
· Transgender identity or presumed transgender identity (defined as transvestism, transsexualisms, intersexuality or having by virtue of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (c7), changed gender and any other gender identity that is not standard male or female gender identity. This refers to a whole range of people who find their gender identity or gender expression differs in some way, from the gender assumptions made by others about them when they were born).'

Note all the 'presumed'.

It makes no difference if a person has a characteristic or not; the only requirement is that the characteristic is presumed.

One note that women may find useful:

a whole range of people who find their gender identity or gender expression differs in some way, from the gender assumptions made by others about them when they were born

That covers pretty much all of us, I reckon.

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Froodwithatowel · 23/09/2023 14:46

ArabeIIaScott · 23/09/2023 14:06

No evidence. No witnesses.

I can't emphasise enough how fucked this is.

'the perception of the victim or any other person is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident or in recognising the malice element of a crime. The perception of the victim should always be explored, however they do not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief and police officers or staff members should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of malice and ill-will is not required for a hate crime or hate incident to be recorded and thereafter investigated as a hate crime or hate incident by police'

It's straight out of the SS handbook.

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