Tragic suicide

So Alice's suicide followed the start of cross sex hormone treatment, if the report is correct?

I know we were warned to watch our child very carefully for the initial weeks after starting antidepressants, as that's a time of increased risk of suicide. I'm wondering if there could be a similar startup effect here. There are so very many unknowns.

Another very good point Frood. So, 'queering' taboos and doing things that are disrespectful is fine for one group of people because some people believe that they should get some kind of additional accommodations to do things that the rest of society find unacceptable.

Once you see this complete lack of symmetry, you never unsee it. It lies in the foundation of every argument to make these accommodations that people demand that are, in fact, to the detriment of other groups within society that have been oppressed historically.

But, it never fails to have some random poster enter a thread to scold others, usually women, for not showing what some poster's believe is the appropriate respect for that group which makes these demands of only ever showing 'belief'. And let's remember, it is a belief. There is no science or medical evidence or even logic that supports a movement to give priority to people who demand their gender identity is prioritised over people's sex and women and girl's sex based rights.

But hey.... it would be an unusual day without a drive by scolding.

So, people are not allowed to point out the very poorly principled reporting of this tragedy?

This ^^

For goodness sake, why not?

I thought we were supposed to be queering all taboos and letting it all hang out, why on earth the sudden 'you mustn't look at that or talk about that' when this unprincipled reporting is a serious public matter?

What matter is that a young person felt distraught enough to end their life and did not receive the help needed to avoid that tragedy.

Thing is, there's a very fractious and politicised debate about what help is most effective in this sort of patient. And one might argue that the parents talking to journalists is also 'disrespectful.'

I echo @Helleofabore's questions about when exactly might it be respectful to discuss this. Alice died in May 2022 and the inquest has been held, the inquest being a process to find out what happened. Is that also disrespectful to the family, @Startingagainandagain? It's in the press and it's not sub-judice, so we can discuss it. Is there point-scoring here? I don't think I've seen it and I trust the mods to take down any untoward comments.

So, people are not allowed to point out the very poorly principled reporting of this tragedy? And also point out the issue that has been studied and documented now by clinicians around the world? That there is a very significant issue with treatment plans and that comorbities are being ignored by some clinicians to the harm of the patient.

So, we are not allowed to discuss these issues because you feel it is disrespectful? When can we have those discussions please? Particularly since some of us have children and teens who are being significantly impacted by these issues.

Yes. Quite.

So this person was going to GenderGP so was being treated for their gender dysphoria.

And GenderGP didn’t treat the comorbidities? So, what use is GenderGP and why is it being rewarded?

Absolutely the services on the NHS has many issues across many health conditions. However, the story seems to be reported very misleadingly.

What matters is that steps are taken to try and prevent other young people doing the same thing.

For that to happen, we need to understand what went wrong, whether the outcome would likely have been different if various other things had been different (there is rarely a simple, single cause), what actually works.

Families have important insights, but as part of a family affected by suicide over more than one generation, I know that our insight is only part of the picture and can be coloured by lots of things including grief, anger and entirely misplaced guilt. What we think would make a difference may not.

There are multiple reports of the inquest in the press and all include details omitted by the BBC and Channel 4. The fact that both focus solely on the NHS waiting list for "gender affirming care" as being responsible for Alice's death is irresponsible propaganda.

The headlines are all just as appalling though.

iNews has details about the mental health care provided by CAHMS and the local adult mental health service but no mention that hormones were supplied privately by Gender GP (Helen Webberley's online outfit):

Trans woman who took own life after three years waiting for NHS appointment was failed by system, mother says
https://inews.co.uk/news/trans-woman-took-own-life-three-years-waiting-nhs-appointment-failed-system-mother-2625872

Archive: https://archive.ph/N6BHV

Much the same reporting in the Telegraph though more cursory:

Trans woman killed herself after spending 1,000 days on NHS waiting lists
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/18/transgender-woman-suicide-tavistock-nhs-waiting-list/

Archive: https://archive.ph/F5DIT

In the Brighton Argus, mum Dr Caroline Litman seems to suggest Alice's dissatisfaction with both CAHMS and the adult mental health service was that they did not expedite access to hormones but were concerned instead about mental health issues. No mention that hormones were supplied by Gender GP.

Brighton: Mother of Alice Litman says healthcare system failed her
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/23797787.brighton-mother-alice-litman-says-healthcare-system-failed/

It would be just as irresponsible for headlines to blare that this suicide was due to refusal to cooperate with mental health services, receipt of cross-sex hormones from Gender GP (or moving to Brighton!) but the press are cherry picking a particular point of criticism made by the parents and are running with an angle that suits their varying agendas about the NHS and services for patients who identify as trans.

(I have phrased it that way because so far the emphasis in reporting has been on Alice having severe depression prior to "coming out as trans" rather than Alice suffering from gender dysphoria.)

Is testosterone giving a mood boost to some women and acting as an antidepressant?

Testosterone is known to have this effect in the short term - as with many substances where the long term effects aren't so wonderful. I wonder how many other restricted substances create "mental health improvements" a few months into use.

I understood the problem was that the CAMHS for children mental health support ended abruptly, and there was no further mental health support available.

Every suicide is tragic. Mental health services are failing horribly.

Although I don't think there is any doubt that years long waiting lists for mental health issues can cause serious distress to people, and as mentioned this applies to various mental health assessments and treatments.

I really think the people trying to score point on the thread are extremely tasteless/callous...

What matter is that a young person felt distraught enough to end their life and did not receive the help needed to avoid that tragedy.

You can have your opinions on gender and disagree with people transitioning but show some respect to that young person and their family.

There is a recent study for testosterone in women claiming it helps mental health.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/08/fast-access-to-hormone-therapy-in-transgender-adults-lifesaving-study-finds

But then, is it helping gender dysphoria?

Is testosterone giving a mood boost to some women and acting as an antidepressant?

They are in the honeymoon period of getting a treatment they wanted and so improved mood for that reason?

It's not looking at long term outcomes, and it doesn't compare transitioning against an alternative of trying to deal with gender dysphoria through therapy say.

You are right about lack of peer-reviewed proper ethical research in all parts of this area.

I note that Jo Phoenix was attempting to do such research at the Open University when she was shut down. (Her case is up soon and she is crowd funding this at the moment.)

Moving away from belief and towards knowledge is important.

Aside from that I also thought it was sad that the older sister changed her family history to the false narrative and talked about anecdotes when her sibling was a 'little girl' which she of course never was.

It's more than sad @titchy - a child's transition which is policed by parents can have a huge impact on siblings' mental health - I've seen it in my extended family. Sibling not allowed to refer to their sister at all. Forced to join in the mental ill health of their sibling.

Can’t see a way to edit the last post for some reason, but having read more thoroughly, it’s unclear from the article whether treatment by Gender GP was ongoing.

I also see it’s a report on an inquest, so perhaps the reporting is not so much at fault, as the inquest result. The waiting lists are blamed (not unreasonably) but presumably witnesses and interviewees are skewing it towards their own prejudice in favour of affirmative care.

So the reality is that this is another Gender GP patient who has committed suicide.

The reporting, and in particular the headline, is very misleading and I am shocked by the Times reporting it this way.

That reporting was completely exploitative, inaccurate and unethical. IMO.

So the young person was receiving treatment, the wanted hormones and mental health support that the family funded themselves, so it was not lack of any treatment that caused this tragedy. And yet again proves that the treatment is not the prophylactic against such tragedy that it's being claimed by some sources, and something else was urgently needed. It would appear another massive failing on the part of CAMHS and mental health support. That poor family.

So this is yet another case where a young person committed suicide after going on cross-sex hormones? When is there going to be a proper investigation into whether the link is causal?

How fortunate for GenderGP that the BBC is being so misleading with its coverage.

Every suicide is tragic. Suicides of people desperate for medical care don't get highlighted in the same way.

I was surprised to see this reported as it was in The Times:

Trans teenager killed herself after waiting years for NHS treatment

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0cf50618-566c-11ee-9ad7-7384b2f230c5?shareToken=11685d7ef5bc8e26332f1d94f0c2a36c

For one thing, I thought headlines like that were a no-no. For another, the article states:

"Due to the severe delays in referral, her family paid for private counselling to help support her mentally. They also sought help from GenderGP, a private service aimed at supporting transgender patients, and Alice began taking cross-sex hormone therapy."

If they were going to go with this, then The Times really should have reported other background information about such routes. Indeed, they have in the past:

GP who gave puberty blockers to children aged 12 nominated for award

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ef4743fe-20a8-11ee-b9dc-95034bbd78f3?shareToken=0d327380fdb18da523883f23c0d9f46e

Online clinic ignores ruling on puberty blockers

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/16db5c54-36f3-11eb-861c-b713ee2a0069?shareToken=0040ecd9a75ed9487ad630e19d35bd3f