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Original poster

Summary of background information by MBM for Judicial Review of Scotland's GRR starting on 19 September 2023

33 replies

IwantToRetire · 18/09/2023 20:55

THREAD: Ahead of next week's judicial review of Section 35 Order issued in respect of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, this thread provides some practical information for those who wish to follow the case.

https://twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1701916577858240874

There are other threads about this JR so wasn't sure which one to add it to, ie is there going to a thread for those following the case tomorrow?

But thought this round up could be useful for some.

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Original poster
IwantToRetire · 19/09/2023 18:02

And https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1704117577641853370.html

OP posts:
Original poster
IwantToRetire · 19/09/2023 17:59

Thread from tribunal tweets (edited to get thread reader unroll)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1704057005596405858.html

OP posts:
Signalbox · 19/09/2023 11:51

JoanOgden · 19/09/2023 09:50

As Lady H believes that sex in the EA means legal sex rather than biological sex, that means the Scottish GRA reforms would have massive implications - making it more likely the Section 35 Order will be upheld. I think

Show quote history

Good point 🤞

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 10:56

im sure the woman talking is trying to lull everyone to sleep. the tone is so sleep inducing!

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 10:06

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1704057005596405858?s=20

Tribunal Tweets
@tribunaltweets
·
8m
From 10am we will be live tweeting the Scottish Govt's petition for Judicial Review of the UK Govt's order under section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 to prohibit the royal assent of the GRR (Scotland) Bill 2023. The petitioner (Scot Govt) will be speaking today.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1704057005596405858?s=20

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 09:59

JoanOgden · 19/09/2023 09:51

Will anyone on this thread be watching the hearing and able to live post? And/or is anyone on Twitter doing it?

ill be watching, but unfortunately whilst I do something else, and I don't know if anyone is tweeting it. ill have a quick look.

JoanOgden · 19/09/2023 09:51

Will anyone on this thread be watching the hearing and able to live post? And/or is anyone on Twitter doing it?

JoanOgden · 19/09/2023 09:50

Signalbox · 19/09/2023 08:19

Shame it's Lady Haldane again.

As Lady H believes that sex in the EA means legal sex rather than biological sex, that means the Scottish GRA reforms would have massive implications - making it more likely the Section 35 Order will be upheld. I think

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 08:29

Igneococcus · 19/09/2023 08:16

Thanks Boiled :)

Share token as well:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3ea1e96-5645-11ee-aed5-2d6419a1ef3d?shareToken=5f24b6d10facdd8cb3567cc45af67ce2

That's much easier 😁😚

Signalbox · 19/09/2023 08:19

Shame it's Lady Haldane again.

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 07:37

Ooh, it works before I post it but not after!

Anyway it's on the archive site

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 07:35

That didn't look like that when i pressed preview!

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 07:34

Igneococcus · 19/09/2023 06:58

Article in the Times (I can do a sharetoken later):
Gender reform court bid is about principle not law, says Yousaf (thetimes.co.uk)

I've been wondering about this, and someone (not me) asks this in comments too, why if it is all about the principles of devolution and stuff, not the actual law in question, why are there three trans lobby groups involved in this?

Archived link

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.li/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reform-court-bid-is-about-principle-not-law-says-yousaf-ttnj8jbx3" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.li/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reform-court-bid-is-about-principle-not-law-says-yousaf-ttnj8jbx3

stealtheatingtunnocks · 19/09/2023 07:12

I am so glad we have MBM. I don r know how they started or how they are funded but I want those women to be knighted. They are saving us all.

Igneococcus · 19/09/2023 06:58

Article in the Times (I can do a sharetoken later):
Gender reform court bid is about principle not law, says Yousaf (thetimes.co.uk)

I've been wondering about this, and someone (not me) asks this in comments too, why if it is all about the principles of devolution and stuff, not the actual law in question, why are there three trans lobby groups involved in this?

Gender reform court bid is about principle not law, says Yousaf

The SNP’s legal challenge to overturn a UK government block on its gender reform bill is “not actually about the legislation itself”, Humza Yousaf has argued.T

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reform-court-bid-is-about-principle-not-law-says-yousaf-ttnj8jbx3

Bosky · 19/09/2023 02:34

Shocking but good to have this exposed! I was having a rant the other day about Civil Servants acting autonomously and getting away with murder, meaning exactly these sort of junior level agenda-driven shenanigans.

I was haughtily corrected, by someone who apparently thinks she knows how things really work, that I was giving far too much credit to Machiavellian senior civil servants, as all committees were overseen by Ministers. She wouldn't have it that it could be juniors running the shop, that Ministers don't have an effin clue what is going on and are asleep at the wheel.

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 19/09/2023 00:38

This is really interesting - or disturbing - that at a "junior" level the Scottish Government was talking to the UK Government at Westminister whilst putting forward their GRR bill:

The most recent FoI response reinforces how much the Scottish Government relied on informal, unminuted, irregular contact with the UK Government Equalities Office (GEO), at which they were joined only by officials from Northern Ireland. The most recent FoI responses do not show any involvement in this at senior civil service level.

These junior level contacts between the Scottish Government Bill team and equivalents in the UK GEO, specifically its LGBT Equalities team, appear to have been the whole basis for concluding that the Bill would not face any objections from the UK Government. The new information released still leaves unclear how far Scottish Ministers were aware this was the case.

As the Bill’s sponsors, the lead responsibility for ensuring discussions happened at the right level of formality and detail, and were properly recorded, lay with the Scottish Government. It was poor practice for a government taking forward a sensitive piece of flagship legislation, in an area known to have reserved and devolved dimensions, to rely entirely on a small group of junior officials, meeting periodically for a general catch-up, without agendas, papers or minutes, to ensure cross-border issues were properly addressed.

The lack of any sort of formal dedicated cross-government working group here is noticeable, especially as the GEO process does not appear to have been seen, or used, by the Scottish Government as a means of engaging with other UK departments as the Bill proceeded. With no minutes, it seems likely no formal papers, and no other UK government departments attending or copied in, these discussions would anyway have been difficult to use for that purpose.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/12/scottish-uk-government-contact-over-the-grr-bill-shedding-more-light-on-the-process/

(Are there really only 3 of them at MBM? How do they get all this work done?!)

Scottish-UK Government contact over the GRR Bill: shedding more light on the process - Murray Blackburn Mackenzie

…the joint work on implementation went ahead. At official level there were fortnightly meetings between UK and Scottish officials as the Bill progressed through Parliament, including early work towards a Section 104 Order, which is the usual method for...

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/12/scottish-uk-government-contact-over-the-grr-bill-shedding-more-light-on-the-process

OP posts:
Original poster
IwantToRetire · 19/09/2023 00:29

@BettyFilous

Sorry. I am someone who often asks that those who post screen shots also post a text verion, because they are hard to read, and as you say useless for assitiveed software.

And I could easily have copied the text of the linked tweets as pasted them in.

(And I dont know why I had thought the thread app wasn't free any more!)

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Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 00:08

And whilst i was there i saw this regarding For Women Scotland.

The petition of For Women Scotland Limited for Judicial review of the revised statutory guidance produced by the Scottish Ministers under Section 7 of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018

Case reference numberP578/22
Date of hearing Wednesday, 4 October 2023

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/the-courts/supreme-courts/about-the-court-of-session/livestream-hearings/case-P578-22

The petition of For Women Scotland Limited for Judicial review of the revised statutory guidance produced by the Scottish Ministers under Section 7 of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/the-courts/supreme-courts/about-the-court-of-session/livestream-hearings/case-P578-22

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 00:04

The link below should take people straight to the mainstream landing page rather than faffing with clicking through multiple links

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/the-courts/supreme-courts/about-the-court-of-session/court-of-session-livestream-hearings

Case: P318/23, Substantive Hearing Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2023 (and the following 3 days)
Time: 10:00 to 13:00 then 14:00 until conclusion each day

So it's Tuesday then the next three days. Which means the last day will be 22 September! The bill was passed 22 December. Exactly 9months! Weird!

Court of Session livestream hearings

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/the-courts/supreme-courts/about-the-court-of-session/court-of-session-livestream-hearings

BettyFilous · 18/09/2023 23:13

The links are useful. They don’t work on screenshots and it is faffy to type them into a browser manually.