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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are people becoming more paranoid about the idea men using women’s facilities?

61 replies

Pleaseme · 15/09/2023 22:32

I was in the shower at the gym today and a member of staff came and knocked on the cubicle door to inform me I was in the ladies changing room. I was a bit confused and replied that I was a woman but thanks for checking.

It turns out some teenage girls ( council gym in a high school) had complained that there was a man in the changing room. I didn’t see them but I did hear some shrieking etc. I can only assume they saw my work clothes hanging up, hi vis t shirt, ballistic trousers and work boots and assumed I was a bloke.

I did go and chat with the staff member afterwards. She was definitely relieved I was not a man but was unsure what she could do if I had been. Are people allowed to choose where to get changed nowadays?

I am a bit bemused by the whole thing tbh. It’s not an assumption I’d of made at their age but perhaps people are much more concerned nowadays?

I have to admit I’ve never encountered a bloke in bathroom / showers. I have met a couple of blue haired young ladies, who were all I’m a man and used the gents at work. It wasn't popular but was short lived.

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booksandbeans · 17/09/2023 10:21

What to do if it happens to you

and this is the part which really angers me. Men can invade women's (single sex - the old fashioned kind) spaces and we as women are supposed to be meek and just try to look away.

If we fight back or resort to "oh, we're all ladies here aren't we', 'look at the ladies' Little Britain style (or just call them out for been a perv when they expose their male genitals) to make them feel uncomfortable in the same way they/men want us to feel, we are met with TERF accusations, threats of or just violence itself, or just pure 100% male testosterone attitude found in the pub after 4 pints. We are not allowed to fight back.

ZeldaFighter · 17/09/2023 10:10

continentallentil · 16/09/2023 20:23

Nothing happened here

The girls saw something that made them think a man might be in the changing room

The staff checked it out as they should

There was no man

Why have you started this thread? No one was rude to you.

Oh, how tiresome, do jog on.

You know what is being asked so if you don't want to contribute helpfully, do one.

Working in a place where diversity was accepted, I was occasionally bothered about using staff toilets in another building as I didn't know whether there were any trans members of staff.

Using the toilets in the public areas, it was on my mind, because they're quite small, enclosed spaces and while it never happened, I think it would have been quite intimidating.

However, toilets aren't my main focus - trans-identified men in women's sports, prisons, changing rooms and hospital wards bothers me far more.

continentallentil · 16/09/2023 20:23

Nothing happened here

The girls saw something that made them think a man might be in the changing room

The staff checked it out as they should

There was no man

Why have you started this thread? No one was rude to you.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 20:14

Chersfrozenface · 16/09/2023 11:18

I agree, most people do cover themselves up. But I think that would be regarded as a social convention rather than a legal requirement.

A witness can try reporting this kind if incident, saying that it did cause them alarm or distress. But a prosecutor would have to prove intention to cause alarm and distress.

One could contrast this with other incidents where complainants' reported feelings are taken very seriously but of course that is under other laws, and indeed other "laws".

The way it works should then be:

> Contact police to report the man for committing indecent exposure every day in full sight and state that this is causing alarm and distress

> Police contact him and advise him that his actions are causing alarm and distress and that if he continues then he could be prosecuted

> If he continues then report him again

> The police can then prosecute because his actions are intentional - they have on record that he has been advised to stop exposing himself because it causes alarm and distress.

That is how "The Naked Rambler" kept getting convicted and spending time in prison.

Advice from the Police:

Indecent exposure and outraging public decency

Indecent exposure

Indecent exposure (legally called just 'exposure' and sometimes known as 'flashing') is when someone deliberately exposes their genitals in order to frighten or upset someone else.

Men and women can both commit indecent exposure. It can happen in public or in private.

Outraging public decency

The separate offence of outraging public decency is when someone does something lewd, obscene or disgusting in the presence of at least two members of the public.

What to do if it happens to you

You might feel anxiety, fear and feelings of distrust and violation. Or you might not feel alarmed or distressed at all. There is no right or wrong way to feel.

  • Look away and move away, if you can.
  • Don't engage directly with the offender.
  • Try not to show a strong emotional response.
  • If it's definitely safe to, consider taking a photo of them from a safe distance.
  • Report it to us, if you feel you can.
Report it

It takes courage to report something uncomfortable, but if you feel you can talk to us, we'll always take you seriously.

Your report can help us stop it happening to someone else. Sometimes people who commit this type of offence go on to commit more serious offences.

More info:

https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/indecent-exposure-flashing-offending-public-decency/

Grammarnut · 16/09/2023 17:47

OhcantthInkofaname · 15/09/2023 23:32

A friend of mine has her 12 year old granddaughter at the gym. There was a male in the dressing room, exposed. My friend was told if she wished to avoid that situation, she would have to use the single dressing facility. That person identified as female and they could not force her to use the single facility.

Your friends needs to show the EA2010 to them. Transwomen can be excluded if it's proportionate to a legitimate end. Not having a man expose his genitals in front of pubescent and pre-pubescent girls is a legitimate end. They are breaking the law. The man is committing a crime - indecent exposure to a minor.

Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 16:40

Our brains are always calculating probabilities. Sometimes not very well, largely because they are adapted to a certain type of information availability that is nothing like the modern world.

But if there are more male people in women's changing rooms, people are more likely to expect they might see men in such places, and be more likely to interpret partial information that way.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 16/09/2023 13:03

When I was 14 (very grungy and unfeminine) I was mistaken for a boy by a woman in a women's toilet and politely told that I should leave. I still feel mortified by itBlush. That was forty-six years ago. I'm sure that mistakes like this have always been quite common.

Transactivism wants to present gender critical thought as having created 'paranoia' about the possibility of men being in single-sex spaces, and it paints gender critical women as people who would challenge the presence in a women's toilet of anyone not meeting certain standards of femininity. The exact opposite is the case, of course. The actual gender critical position is that being a woman and complying with 'feminine' gender norms are two different things.

I personally don't feel paranoid about the possibility of men being in single-sex spaces and I don't know anyone that does. I don't 'feel' anything in particular. I just have a certain piece of knowledge - that, now, some men feel entitled to enter women's spaces and that in many cases they will be supported in doing this.

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 12:27

SunflowersAndSmellyTrainers · 16/09/2023 11:20

Who's Jan?

I thought it was a piss take, Jan the man perhaps? I struggle to imagine anyone getting their jollies by offending teenagers with workwear but anything is possible!

OP posts:
namitynamechange · 16/09/2023 12:15

There's also basic probabilities.
Women CAN wear ballistic trousers and work in professions that require them (OP is an obv example). But men are more likely to (OP mentions being the only woman). If I randomly saw a pair of trousers like that in the street no other context I might guess they belonged to a man. If I saw a pair of trousers like that in the woman's changing rooms etc then 10 years ago I might have assumed they were a woman because that would be the most likely explanation in that context. But that is no longer necessarily the most likely explanation...

Catiette · 16/09/2023 12:13

The potential impact on women's experience of public spaces day-to-day is enraging. Clearly, in a society in which Sarah must fight for the kind of rights she's being denied, this intangible, immeasurable increase in vigilance across a proportion of the general populace simply isn't going to register as in any way significant. But, when you think about it...

Historically (AKA ten years ago!), any news reports about men in women's spaces would have been few and far between, and founded on an explicit, definitive condemnation of this. Now, there's a good proportion that will be advocating FOR this unless an actual offence was committed (and even then, sometimes!)... And, in part because of the former kind of article, the latter - articles reporting such offences - are becoming more common.

What an insidious effect this must be having on at least some women's perception of public spaces. And some is too many.

I know I'm more wary than I was, and very uncomfortably conscious of the power shift that means that, whereas before I could call out an interloper, now I'd face an invidious choice between getting embroiled in unpleasant politics, or quietly & uncomplainingly leaving.

And just the knowledge that a man being there is more likely than it was before, however unlikely this may still be, also has an effect. There's this subtle increase in tension, in wariness, yes, in vigilance. And in a society in which so much of our movement in public is accompanied by this, the silent cost of losing the relief of a space offering respite from that must be immense.

Most times I contribute to these boards, I'll have had a recent experience of feeling a little unsafe, or feeling the need to adapt my behaviour or body language, in public because of a man. Today, just half an hour ago - an intense stare on a station platform, & the knowledge that, if I didn't overtly avert my eyes & emphasise disinterest, I could be in for an uncomfortable encounter or worse. I'm 40+!!!

I recently said to a lovely male relative how sorry I felt for my little niece growing up in this society, & he responded with a NAMALT. He was doing it to play devil's advocate in an engaging conversation - we enjoy debating - BUT it upset me. It still does.

I've seen a man sweep confidently out of the Ladies' at a large UK airport. His simple confidence in doing that - to him, it meant nothing (and sure, maybe to many women there, it didn't either) - HAS contributed to my increased sense of vigilance in going about my day-to-day life. Because, in the past, I'd have been reassured by a visible reminder of the protective social contract of collective public resistance to him. But, instead, on this occasion, he served to educate me, and other women, in what we've lost: the right to expect a female space to be free of men; the ironically reassuring security of the knowledge that any man in that context almost certainly has bad intentions, replaced by an uncomfortable ambiguity and uncertainty; the right to speak up if I feel unsafe.

These are huge losses.

I won't be the only woman of the 50 or so who watched that man leave those loos on whom he had that effect.

One man. One thoughtless loo trip.

Enraging.

(Edited to tone down swearing - don't usually swear. It just makes me so angry. And to add that, much of the time, I'm not conscious of being more wary, & am certainly not paranoid or restricting my movement. But I think the drivers' hazard perception text is an excellent analogy here. Drivers aren't fearfully expecting a kid behind every car... but in order to navigate safely, they're aware of the possibility. This is why driving can be very tiring. How dare society become complicit in changing women's experience of public space in this way without at the least inviting our input in a debate about this?!)

thirdfiddle · 16/09/2023 11:20

I wonder if there is also a degree of young people being more polarised in term of stereotypes? They're taught that you're not supposed to tell whether someone's a man or a woman by their body, but by their "presentation" or what they say. So maybe more likely to jump to ballistic trousers = man than someone a little older who grew up in the gender bending late C20th

SunflowersAndSmellyTrainers · 16/09/2023 11:20

Who's Jan?

Chersfrozenface · 16/09/2023 11:18

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 10:24

Is it normal to change clothes, to the point of exposing genitals, on a beach though? I wild swim somewhere popular and whilst people do get changed you don’t see anything because people wrap towels around themselves and wiggle out of wet swimwear into clothes or wear dry robes.

I’d expect police officers to have a chat about how it could be perceived as offensive. I might be old fashioned though, police seem to have odd priorities these days.

I agree, most people do cover themselves up. But I think that would be regarded as a social convention rather than a legal requirement.

A witness can try reporting this kind if incident, saying that it did cause them alarm or distress. But a prosecutor would have to prove intention to cause alarm and distress.

One could contrast this with other incidents where complainants' reported feelings are taken very seriously but of course that is under other laws, and indeed other "laws".

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 10:24

Chersfrozenface · 16/09/2023 10:08

I don't know that there's any point in calling 111.

Public nudity is not actually illegal in the UK.

Indecent exposure is defined as " A person intentionally exposes their genitals, and. They intend for someone to see them and be caused alarm or distress."

The person in question can argue that being naked while changing all ones's clothes in a place where it is normal to change clothes is not an offence, and that there is no intention to cause alarm or distress.

Is it normal to change clothes, to the point of exposing genitals, on a beach though? I wild swim somewhere popular and whilst people do get changed you don’t see anything because people wrap towels around themselves and wiggle out of wet swimwear into clothes or wear dry robes.

I’d expect police officers to have a chat about how it could be perceived as offensive. I might be old fashioned though, police seem to have odd priorities these days.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 16/09/2023 10:23

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 10:07

Perhaps hyper- vigilant would of been better than paranoid in my op. I’m a firm believer in single sex spaces. I was surprised to be confronted in the space designated for my sex because my work clothes aren’t stereotypically female.

I’d like to see clear guidance/ rules on this. It doesn’t seem hard. Women in the ladies, men in the gents, if you identify outside of your sex/ have issues with communal changing etc. use the unisex individual cubicles.

You will not see much disagreement with your post on this board OP.

And imagine if girls and women felt confident again that only female people would be in a female single sex space, there would be no need for any one to be concerned that a male person would be ever disrespectful of this social norm or law. I am sure it is annoying that your clothes were seen as stereotypically male. That is a shame. Before I moved back to the UK, even in Sydney it was not unusual to see women in hi vis gear in their workspace or just walking around in breaks or to and from work.

Tinysoxxx · 16/09/2023 10:21

When I was at school I used to walk home through the park. The ladies toilet was semi hidden with trees and a man with bright, badly applied makeup used to pull up his nightie and stick his penis out, touching it, at me and other girls. He had a big woollen trench coat on over his short transparent baby doll nightie. None of us used the ladies because of him so I don’t know if he ever went in - I expect not. He had men’s boots on and presented to me as a desperate mentally disturbed old man with his blond scruffy hair matted and general dirtiness. We started avoiding that path but I saw men still walk along it so I think he knew who to stay hidden in the trees from.

I have no idea what became of him. I wonder if he would be in the toilet blocks nowadays. Not those ones though as they shut down soon after.

So I was always a bit paranoid from a young age about men moping around toilets (especially with big coats on) but didn’t think men would enter the toilet block.

I think nowadays men are emboldened to enter and, therefore, OP yes I am more paranoid. I am basing this on my experience (I have other flashing stories I could tell you), knowledge of boys getting excited entering girls toilets at school and videoing them and the school dismissing it as they are ‘gender confused’. The paranoia is because it’s obvious a woman has to look after herself and her own safety. We can’t rely on general societal rules anymore.

ArabeIIaScott · 16/09/2023 10:09

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 10:07

Perhaps hyper- vigilant would of been better than paranoid in my op. I’m a firm believer in single sex spaces. I was surprised to be confronted in the space designated for my sex because my work clothes aren’t stereotypically female.

I’d like to see clear guidance/ rules on this. It doesn’t seem hard. Women in the ladies, men in the gents, if you identify outside of your sex/ have issues with communal changing etc. use the unisex individual cubicles.

Yes, I fully agree, OP.

The current situation is a mess that is damaging women, girls, and all the progress we'd made in challenging sexist stereotypes.

Chersfrozenface · 16/09/2023 10:08

ZeldaFighter · 16/09/2023 09:45

Call 111, there's definitely an offence there - public decency or something. No adult has a right to strip naked in public.

(And on a meaner note, fgs, do something! He is getting away with it because you are all tolerating it.)

I don't know that there's any point in calling 111.

Public nudity is not actually illegal in the UK.

Indecent exposure is defined as " A person intentionally exposes their genitals, and. They intend for someone to see them and be caused alarm or distress."

The person in question can argue that being naked while changing all ones's clothes in a place where it is normal to change clothes is not an offence, and that there is no intention to cause alarm or distress.

ArabeIIaScott · 16/09/2023 10:08

Cripes.

I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't post more about Wi Spa, but ...

Looking into the edit history of that article ...

Archive 1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wi_Spa_controversy/Archive_1

Invisible battles have been raging for years.

Talk:Wi Spa controversy/Archive 1 - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wi_Spa_controversy/Archive_1

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 10:07

Perhaps hyper- vigilant would of been better than paranoid in my op. I’m a firm believer in single sex spaces. I was surprised to be confronted in the space designated for my sex because my work clothes aren’t stereotypically female.

I’d like to see clear guidance/ rules on this. It doesn’t seem hard. Women in the ladies, men in the gents, if you identify outside of your sex/ have issues with communal changing etc. use the unisex individual cubicles.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 16/09/2023 10:04

Hm. Wiki has helpfully provided an image of a 'Transwoman' within the link, there. Instead of an image of Darren Merager. Hold on. I'll find one.

He doesn't appear to be wearing a flouncy frock; nevertheless he states he is 'legally female' and certainly claims to be a transwoman.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11586815/Registered-sex-offender-identifying-woman-arrested-exposing-erect-penis-young-girl.html

Are people becoming more paranoid about the idea men using women’s  facilities?
ArabeIIaScott · 16/09/2023 09:58

Actually the Wiki of the Wi Spa is quite grimly amusing to read.

It's like a modern struggle with cognitive dissonance.

The article works very hard to suggest that Merager is not trans:

'a nude individual with a penis, most commonly believed to be a trans woman'

'an individual, commonly reported to be a transgender woman'

(Echoes of 'this individual' from Nicola Sturgeon and Humza Yousaf. Trans women are women until they may not be nice people, at which point they become 'individuals'. Womangender is a prize you get for good behaviour, it seems, rather than a biological reality that we can all observe.)

But the article all falls apart when it gets to:

'The suspect has denied guilt, claiming harassment over being a trans person'

There's more detail in there about the pre-trial hearing that I hadn't seen before, too.

(Content warning, btw, this is not pleasant reading, for CSA.)

Some of the hearing revolved around the suspect's penis:

'At a pre-trial hearing in February of 2023, two witnesses attested that the suspect’s penis had been erect.[30] This was corroborated by the initial police report, filed by the witness known as Cubana Angel, which stated the suspect’s penis was “partially erect.”[30] A fourteen-year-old witness described the suspect’s penis as “soft,” but added that she had never seen a penis before.[30] The suspect spoke with a reporter during a court recess and was quoted saying, “Why weren’t the two dozen women in the spa indecently exposed? Only men can be indecently exposed, but women can’t? Only the penis is indecent.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy

I am disgusted by the fact that it somehow matters how hard his penis was, rather than the fact that children were exposed to it.

Trans woman - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman

ArabeIIaScott · 16/09/2023 09:48

TheGreatATuin · 16/09/2023 09:30

I think its definitely a thing. Fifteen years ago, few men would have risked openly entering a women's change area, women would have confident challenging them or raising with staff, and staff would have been confident kicking them out and calling the police.
Now, it's open season. Any man can wander in and know that he can play the victim if challenged, and the women and staff know that if they complain, they might end up like the wi-spa incident with their faces plastered across social media and jack booted, masked thugs starting riots to defend him.
Women have had to become hyper vigilant in what used to be safe spaces.
Once they'd have seen that high vis jacket and boots and assume it was just a woman who had them, but now they know its just as likely, if not more so, to be a man.

Yep.

We can no longer call out perverts in our spaces. Indecent exposure and voyeurism are both effectively not only legalised but protected and sanctioned by law.

See Wi Spa and other very similar cases:

A woman complained at a man with a semi erect penis in the women's section.

She was called a 'dick' by other customers.
The Guardian implied she was lying.
Women who protested were physically attacked.
Riots in the streets.

A few months later when it emerges that Darren Merager had previous convictions for sex offences?

Silence.

Did the Guardian apologise?
Did it fuck.

ZeldaFighter · 16/09/2023 09:45

muchalover · 16/09/2023 08:58

A person gets changed from a women's swimming costume on the beach where I live. They strip themselves naked in public and get dressed from there. Daily or close to daily.

They have a penis.

Nobody is able to challenge them.

Call 111, there's definitely an offence there - public decency or something. No adult has a right to strip naked in public.

(And on a meaner note, fgs, do something! He is getting away with it because you are all tolerating it.)

TheGreatATuin · 16/09/2023 09:30

I think its definitely a thing. Fifteen years ago, few men would have risked openly entering a women's change area, women would have confident challenging them or raising with staff, and staff would have been confident kicking them out and calling the police.
Now, it's open season. Any man can wander in and know that he can play the victim if challenged, and the women and staff know that if they complain, they might end up like the wi-spa incident with their faces plastered across social media and jack booted, masked thugs starting riots to defend him.
Women have had to become hyper vigilant in what used to be safe spaces.
Once they'd have seen that high vis jacket and boots and assume it was just a woman who had them, but now they know its just as likely, if not more so, to be a man.

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