Page 3 | Work HR: Preferred Pronouns are mandatory

MoreThanAFeline · 2023-09-14T19:22:34+00:00

Name changed for this. I wanted to update my address on the HR system at work. The instructions on how to do this say that something simple like updating an address can be done easily and that each section can be independently accessed. When I try to click to the address part of the form, I get the attached error message. Preferred Pronouns are apparently mandatory. My 'gender identity' is mandatory. My 'trans status' is mandatory. Sex is not asked for anywhere. My workplace is supposed to be run by grown ups. How depressing.

sashh · 15/09/2023 09:32

Well they are breaching the equality act and the data protection act, maybe you should tell them?

QuillBill · 15/09/2023 09:30

Wow, I didn't know any of that. That you can't be Scottish and British.

Brefugee · 15/09/2023 08:42

jonnyjanetkeogh · 14/09/2023 23:18

To be fair, atheism is not a religion by its very definition. It's an absence of belief in any deity, the rejection of religion. So no it can't appear as a religion option because it isn't one.
I don't mean that to sound pompous or arrogant, just highlighting why it isn't a religion option.

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but that is the same as the gender identity option being mandatory and not giving the option to say "i don't believe in Gender Woo" (or other words to the same effect)

I'm not going to click a religion because I'm an atheist. If it is a mandatory box, I'm stuck.

Original poster

MoreThanAFeline · 15/09/2023 07:12

QuillBill · 14/09/2023 21:50

This is the maddest form I have ever seen. Sexual orientation!

And the White - E W NI British one!

Well exactly. But up here in Scotland, that wording for the “ethnicity” (!) question has been utterly standard for the last 15 years since the SNP took over.

That was also the wording in “Scotland’s Census”. You know, the one that was delayed by a year just because we have to be special and different from the rest of the UK and was so badly run as to have generated mostly unusable data at huge additional cost.

You’re not allowed to be Scottish and British you see. Well meaning people down south used to see the SNP as a nice, progressive party (pre Isla Bryson and camper vans perhaps).

But nationalists gonna nationalist 🤷‍♀️

OP posts:

AnSolas · 14/09/2023 23:40

GreenMonty · 14/09/2023 23:02

I don't want to say my work area but there is an outside body that collects equality data and that's why my place of employment need to have our personal data updated - they've an obligation to report.

Nope,
They can collect the data without attaching the data to your file.

Your outside body is not looking to get data on GreenMonty employee it is just looking for headline numbers.
So if you were "the only gay married disabled Xi in the village" your employer also has a duty to not make you easy to ID

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 14/09/2023 23:31

Crouton19 · 14/09/2023 20:55

Depending on how you want to approach this, you can also go down the route of saying it is a breach of the yogykarta (is that it?) principles to force someone to declare their gender identity as they may not want others to know.

Please don't do this! These "principles" are basically a wishlist put together by gender ideologists, some of which are really bad for women (as now acknowledged even by one of the authors of the original set) and the updated set is now even worse, including calling for self-ID and the removal of all sex markers from identification documents for example. If you say "Oh but that breaches the YPs" in this case, what the HR person or whoever will hear is "You ought to be following all the YPs" - so from having potentially never heard of them, you've now essentially told them to go and look them up and start trying to implement them all at your workplace as though they were a legal requirement (which they're not). This is really not a good idea! And there are plenty of other, good reasons to push back on these questions without having to invoke the YPs.

drspouse · 14/09/2023 23:25

jonnyjanetkeogh · 14/09/2023 23:18

To be fair, atheism is not a religion by its very definition. It's an absence of belief in any deity, the rejection of religion. So no it can't appear as a religion option because it isn't one.
I don't mean that to sound pompous or arrogant, just highlighting why it isn't a religion option.

Show quote history

True! So it's more like a mandatory question where you can say you are Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist but there's no option for No religion.

drspouse · 14/09/2023 23:25

WhereAreWeNow · 14/09/2023 22:38

Also, for what possible legitimate purpose could they need to know your marital status? I mean, WTF?!

This is actually a protected characteristic so might have a more legitimate reason than GI/pronouns which don't.

Boiledbeetle · 14/09/2023 23:19

LoobiJee · 14/09/2023 20:27

I’m surprised they believe they can require disclosure of marital status and caring responsibilities as a contractual condition of employment.

I thought asking that sort of crap was made illegal years ago as it disadvantages women, and i would have thought it's none of their Fucking business.

jonnyjanetkeogh · 14/09/2023 23:18

drspouse · 14/09/2023 23:14

It's as if a "religion" question only had religions and no "atheist" option.

To be fair, atheism is not a religion by its very definition. It's an absence of belief in any deity, the rejection of religion. So no it can't appear as a religion option because it isn't one.
I don't mean that to sound pompous or arrogant, just highlighting why it isn't a religion option.

TragicMuse · 14/09/2023 23:17

I think I'd be wanting to see their data processing impact assessment for this...

You might want to ask them.

They're also processing special category data, ask them what their lawful basis is for processing article 9 data. Bet they haven't got one!

drspouse · 14/09/2023 23:16

Uterusbegone · 14/09/2023 22:05

In a practical sense 'Prefer to self describe' probably opens a free text box where you can put 'I don't believe in gender identity' and 'use the pronouns aligned with my sex'

I had this recently and there was no option to self-describe. But actually it was a pop up and it turned out you could go on to the next page by just opening the pop up and not answering anything. It was work related but not my employer (a service provider) so I complained to them (they want us to use their service, they need to make it user-friendly).

drspouse · 14/09/2023 23:14

It's as if a "religion" question only had religions and no "atheist" option.

Crouton19 · 14/09/2023 23:02

None whatsoever but they appeal to the DEI types who might be concerned about inadvertently harming the people they are supposedly trying to help. It's a way to refuse pronoun nonsense without needing to mention sex, if your org is very captured.

GreenMonty · 14/09/2023 23:02

I don't want to say my work area but there is an outside body that collects equality data and that's why my place of employment need to have our personal data updated - they've an obligation to report.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/09/2023 23:01

They don't have legal standing anywhere.

SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 14/09/2023 22:58

Crouton19 · 14/09/2023 20:55

Depending on how you want to approach this, you can also go down the route of saying it is a breach of the yogykarta (is that it?) principles to force someone to declare their gender identity as they may not want others to know.

I've heard of these principles on MN but do they have any legal standing in the UK?

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 14/09/2023 22:55

I would send the DPO and HR an email with that screenshot and say there seems to be an error with the system, that you're trying to update your address and instead if it letting you edit that only, it's saying you have to also enter all sorts of information relating to protected characteristics that you're not comfortable disclosing. Could they please either edit your address to X or let you know when the error is fixed so that you can do it.

If they push back saying it's not a bug, at that point I'd raise that you believe that it's inappropriate and exposing the company to significant risk to be forcing employees to 'out' themselves as having a protected characteristic(s) and are concerned it's not compliant with GDPR and the restrictions on relevant information.

I'd do everything in my power to not nail my GC colours to the mast, I'd just make sweeping statements about 'outing' and 'discrimination'. I'm incredibly grateful to the warriors like Maya that have stood firm on this, but I've not got the mental ability to do that, it's a bigger risk that I'd be able to take. I have to limit myself to gardening for others.

WhereAreWeNow · 14/09/2023 22:38

Also, for what possible legitimate purpose could they need to know your marital status? I mean, WTF?!

WhereAreWeNow · 14/09/2023 22:36

Nope. They can't require this. As others have said, it's a GDPR issue and a discrimination issue. It would actually discriminate against trans members of staff as they have legal protections against disclosure of their trans status (I know in reality it's rarely a secret). If you can't ask someone for a GRC, you can't ask them to declare their trans status just because someone in HR has been on a shit course.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/09/2023 22:29

I am really surprised that people in HR roles aren't aware of their GDPR responsibilities.

You clearly have a much more competent HR department than our place. I'm never surprised by ours being unaware of any part of their job. In fact I'm only surprised when they do know something useful.

MaybeOneAndDone · 14/09/2023 22:18

It's a breach of GDPR as it goes against "data minimisation". I would tell your workplace HR team that, unless they make it possible to update your address without answering the gender ID question, you will report them to them to the Information Commissioner's Office, who could potentially issue the business with a hefty fine for the GDPR breach.

https://www.2b-advice.com/en/blog/what-is-data-minimization/#:~:text=The%20data%20minimisation%20principle%20also,prevent%20unauthorised%20persons%20from%20entering.

To be honest, I am really surprised that people in HR roles aren't aware of their GDPR responsibilities.

What Is Data Minimization? The Principles According to GDPR | 2BAdvice

The aim of this article is to give you a clear understanding of the data minimization principle and practical advice on how to implement it.

https://www.2b-advice.com/en/blog/what-is-data-minimization#:~:text=The%20data%20minimisation%20principle%20also,prevent%20unauthorised%20persons%20from%20entering.

AnSolas · 14/09/2023 22:14

MoreThanAFeline · 14/09/2023 20:23

Further info: I could click to choose my 'preferred pronouns' but there's no option for 'I do not believe in the whole premise of gender ideology; use the third person pronouns you normally would do for someone of my sex'

Same for gender identity. I do not "prefer not to say" what my gender identity is. I DO NOT HAVE a gender identity because I do not believe in the weird ideology that underpins the question.

I'd like to ask my employer why they are asking all this weird stuff which is not part of the Equality Act 2010, and whether the resulting data is GDPR compliant.

Not an expert but anyway

Your employer has a problem.
Each item of data has to be subjected to fair processing

You can work through a sequence of questions to work out if each data point is needed to be held on your personell file

So for your address
the first question is do we need it : yes (it can be multuple reasons but each one is a new function the employer needs to prove a need to collect process and store the data for each function in isolation)
Function 1: written communications
Function 2: WFH office with company assets
Function 3: staff costs and travel auditing
Etc

Function 1: written communications
Is the employer (not you) keeping the data up-to-date? No
(as your address has changed. (And you can not up-date as part of your employee duties))
Has the employer provided a method to up-date address and not collect excessive data not relevant to the address: No

So the computer says no is not fair processing.

And the gender identity / trans question has no lawful reason for collection.

Listing a specific disability is sensitive medical data so why is that needed if no adjustments are needed.

I would also argue that the storage of any PC is not needed if the reporting cycle is an annual report. A one use time-out link would be more appropiate.

ResisterRex · 14/09/2023 22:13

I'd also have a look through here:

ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/lawful-basis/special-category-data/what-is-special-category-data/#scd1

Being forced to reveal GC views (which is special category data) seems to be a likely result of these bizarre rules.

GrassWillBeGreener · 14/09/2023 22:06

Hope you get it sorted.

I've come across some nice suggestions for alternative pronouns recently, such as "fe/fi/fo/fum" and "hi/ho/hi/ho" ...