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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Leaked recording exposes trans turmoil at The Guardian (Times, 12/09/23)

131 replies

BettyFilous · 12/09/2023 08:45

Interesting to see this article surface.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b16ddb8a-50df-11ee-a518-203f78f24415?shareToken=77b1ad072e9c62fff94095120488bc5d

The Guardian is embroiled in more turmoil over its stance on the trans debate, with an internal meeting setting staff at loggerheads.

Leaked recording exposes trans turmoil at The Guardian

The Guardian is embroiled in more turmoil over its stance on the trans debate, with an internal meeting setting staff at loggerheads. Journalists including Suza

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b16ddb8a-50df-11ee-a518-203f78f24415?shareToken=77b1ad072e9c62fff94095120488bc5d

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ArabeIIaScott · 12/09/2023 14:17

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/09/2023 14:11

Also the story of the adult female transitioner in Belgium who opted for euthanasia rather than live with the results of the operations.

Verhelst was 44 years old.
Belgian transsexual elects to die after botched sex change operation

That is utterly tragic.

'Suicide rates among transsexuals and those who have undergone gender reassignment surgery are high with some suggesting the rate may be as high as 31 per cent.
Chris Hyde, professor at the University of Exeter, who has studied the issues surrounding sex change operations, told MailOnline: ‘Research we conducted a decade ago found there is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing.
‘While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide.
‘While we haven’t looked at the situation since then, given the difficulties in researching this area, it is likely that the same issues remain today.’'

ValerieDoonican · 12/09/2023 14:13

loislovesstewie · 12/09/2023 10:03

I've thought for a very,very long time that the Grauniad is writing primarily for US readership.It's where the money is , so consequently articles are written to appeal to a certain readership. It's one reason why i stopped reading it, the articles were of no interest to me and had little bearing on life in the UK. A lot of it is , what I will call, identity politics. There are very rare articles that are well written, i often feel an adolescent has contributed.

I agree. The UK news and environment coverage is still ok-ish, if patchy and worse written than ever. But all the blokes spending a weekend sitting on hard stones to get in touch with their inner gastropod or whatever. It's looking at a very me-focused, well-heeled, young'n'groovy demographic of woke bros n gals imo - presumably so expensive shit can be advertised to them?. I guess US ad revenue is important so they don't lose money any faster..

But my God the US "reporters" have no clue how to write a basic factual news story (ie without a scolding woke value judgement built in to each sentence to remind you of the correct take) - and no-one is being paid to shout at them from the subs desk to take their pathetic copy and start again with some facts <wanders off muttering about how we wouldn't have got away with it on a proper news desk in the old days etc>

Brefugee · 12/09/2023 14:12

that one made me honest to god well up. It's awful

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/09/2023 14:11

Brefugee · 12/09/2023 13:57

frequent loss of consciousness due to pain from the hair on the inside of my urethra

that whole extract is just desperately sad and depressing. Perhaps in the manner of those US states that forbid abortion unless you have an ultrasound, anyone going for FtM trangsender surgeries/treatment should read that article.

Also the story of the adult female transitioner in Belgium who opted for euthanasia rather than live with the results of the operations.

Verhelst was 44 years old.
Belgian transsexual elects to die after botched sex change operation

Belgian elects to die by euthanasia after botched sex change

Nathan Verhelst, 44, died yesterday afternoon in Belgium after being allowed have his life ended on the grounds of 'unbearable psychological suffering'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2440086/Belgian-transsexual-Nathan-Verhelst-44-elects-die-euthanasia-botched-sex-change-operation.html

LunaNorth · 12/09/2023 14:10

Hair inside the urethra. I can’t even imagine. The very thought is making me feel faint.

What the hell happened to ‘first do no harm’?

ArabeIIaScott · 12/09/2023 14:00

Relevant section:

'Gender confirmation surgery costs vary. Fees can range from £10,000 to £100,000, according to trans support network, TransUnite.
Female to male gender confirmation surgery is more expensive, often in the region of £60,000. Male to female gender confirmation surgery costs between £10,000 and £20,000.
For top surgery only, the cost generally falls between £5,000-£8,000, including aftercare.
Of course, there are also a number of hidden costs to gender confirmation surgery. The cost of an initial assessment usually falls between £200-£300 for an hour with a clinical specialist. Then there are travel costs, accommodation costs for loved ones staying near the hospital and various post-op expenses such as walking aids – as well as the cost of taking time off work to recover.'

ArabeIIaScott · 12/09/2023 13:59

Oh, bugger. I was sharing an article from GoFundMe, with info on the costs of 'gender confirming' medical treatments.

It wasn't an actual fundraiser, perhaps MN will unhide it eventually.

ArabeIIaScott · 12/09/2023 13:58

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Brefugee · 12/09/2023 13:57

frequent loss of consciousness due to pain from the hair on the inside of my urethra

that whole extract is just desperately sad and depressing. Perhaps in the manner of those US states that forbid abortion unless you have an ultrasound, anyone going for FtM trangsender surgeries/treatment should read that article.

BlessedKali · 12/09/2023 13:53

Brainworm · 12/09/2023 09:40

'....... subsequently left many in the newsroom furious because it was held during the newspaper’s diversity, equity and inclusion week'

We should compile a list of 'thought terminating' (or attempted) thought terminating phrases that TRAs trot out. This one is of the 'and in Pride month' variety.

i hadn't thought of that, but you're quite right. I see a lot of 'AND in pride month/queer week/non binary day etc..' used as a means of shutting down debate.

It makes sense then that they are trying to cover as much of the yearly calender in TQ+ days... in which you are ESPECIALLY not allowed to point out the emperor has no clothes.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/09/2023 13:48

extract

I write all this as a 47-year-old transgender man who transitioned five years ago. I’m also a parent to three teenagers. Though I admire the good intentions of parents who seek to support their children, I have serious concerns about reckless acquiescence to a child’s Internet-mediated self-diagnosis. Many older transgender folks share these concerns, too. In many cases, we are people who have been quietly going about our lives in society for years, anonymously sharing shops, offices, elevators, and sidewalks with everyone else, without making a big deal of our identity or proselytizing to others. We like it that way. But given the current climate, we now need to speak out.

[Continues]

During my own transition, I had seven surgeries. I also had a massive pulmonary embolism, a helicopter life-flight ride, an emergency ambulance ride, a stress-induced heart attack, sepsis, a 17-month recurring infection due to using the wrong skin during a (failed) phalloplasty, 16 rounds of antibiotics, three weeks of daily IV antibiotics, the loss of all my hair, (only partially successful) arm reconstructive surgery, permanent lung and heart damage, a cut bladder, insomnia-induced hallucinations—oh and frequent loss of consciousness due to pain from the hair on the inside of my urethra. All this led to a form of PTSD that made me a prisoner in my apartment for a year. Between me and my insurance company, medical expenses exceeded $900,000.

Read more: Here's What Medical Transition Looks Like

I understand that to some rich, well-educated people on this thread, such sums may be pocket change. I will venture to suggest that other people and companies are profitable because they don't dismiss the opportunity to expand a market by an extra billion here and there.

Forget What Gender Activists Tell You. Here’s What Medical Transition Looks Like

Sydney. London. Toronto.

https://quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/09/2023 13:46

The poor old Guardian - used to be a hive of investigative journalism - now more akin to a comic.
Never regret cancelling my subscription of many years.

duc748 · 12/09/2023 13:41

As for the Guardian bending towards the US market, I'd add that they also very much are aimed at the Australian (digital) market. This is why you find Aussie sport being covered more than British sport in some areas, for example. And we know how the tide of opinion is Down Under. Notice how the lead stories are about Aussie sport. Nobody (except a few expats) in the UK is interested in AFL (Aussie Rules football). Imagine if the main stories in the Guardian's football section were about Barcelona or Bayern Munich! Wouldn't happen, would it? It's another indicator is where their priorities are.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/rugbyleague

Rugby league | Sport | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/rugbyleague

maltravers · 12/09/2023 13:19

In terms of the opioid comparison - if you can introduce a long term or lifelong reliance, you will make lots of money. Immoral but good business and the US model seems to allow for this sort of free market abuse. The sort of lax free market consumer led prescribing that underlies the private clinics prescribing PBs and CSH etc in the UK. Hopefully the UK authorities will start to crack down on this.

loislovesstewie · 12/09/2023 12:52

Today in the Grauniad is an article about being trans and Orthodox Jewish , in New York of all places! I rest my case.

ArabeIIaScott · 12/09/2023 12:43

No, it didn't.

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 12:34

Brefugee · 12/09/2023 12:27

did you even look at Arabella's link?

Yes. It confirmed what I wrote above.

Whatswhatwhichiswhich · 12/09/2023 12:31

That level of infighting shows clearly that they need a complete overhaul of management and staff. The fact any of them could invoke violence and protests at a staff meeting and weren’t immediately dismissed is detrimental to the functioning of the newsroom and the publics opinion on their publication.

Brefugee · 12/09/2023 12:27

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 09:59

One individuals opinion isn’t much. The fact of the matter is the “big pharma” link is over-cooked.

did you even look at Arabella's link?

ArabeIIaScott · 12/09/2023 12:13

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 12/09/2023 11:37

Well I don’t know about you lot but I’m now completely convinced that there’s no way the US medical industry is going after a market with an estimated revenue of $5bn. I mean, what’s in it for them?

Good point. Sidhbh Gallagher is probably making more off of her Twitter revenue. Or something.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11303919/Florida-sex-change-surgeon-dubs-Dr-Teetus-Deletus-REPORTED-consumer-watchdog.html

Florida sex-change surgeon 'Dr Teetus Deletus' REPORTED to watchdog

Dr Sidhbh Gallagher is accused of 'deceptively' nudging 'vulnerable' teens into sex change operations to her hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok and other social media platforms.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11303919/Florida-sex-change-surgeon-dubs-Dr-Teetus-Deletus-REPORTED-consumer-watchdog.html

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 12:09

maltravers · 12/09/2023 12:07

So cynical Reality! Anyone would think you’d been watching America’s opioid crisis unfurl.

It’s not a good comparison - vastly more people can potentially be given opioids than drugs related to gender reassignment

NotBadConsidering · 12/09/2023 12:09

The fundamental issue with the Guardian is now I trust little of what they publish on other subjects. They’re so willing to lie about puberty blockers, the suicide myth and so on, that I have to assume they’re willing to lie about everything. It’s a propaganda rag and they’re too sanctimonious to see it in themselves or too hypocritical, one or the other. It makes me laugh when I see Guardian readers lament the “Murdoch Press” for its bias and lies, as if their favoured home is anything different.

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 12:08

RealityFan · 12/09/2023 12:01

You know this is a gateway drug to the whole revolution that is transhumanism.

If you can really convince society to accept medicalisation of teens, drugs and surgery, with all the attendant disasters of infertility, osteoporosis, and worse mental issues long term, then you have a nice little earner that can only grow exponentially, and lead to the bigger prize, transhumanism.

Mary Harrington is your woman for this.

$5bn today
$50bn in a decade.
The sky's the limit from there.

Medicine, will pay, find patient. Hundreds of thousands of new patients, thank you very much.

I think you’re getting into conspiracy theory type thinking there

maltravers · 12/09/2023 12:07

So cynical Reality! Anyone would think you’d been watching America’s opioid crisis unfurl.

GodessOfThunder · 12/09/2023 12:06

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 12/09/2023 11:37

Well I don’t know about you lot but I’m now completely convinced that there’s no way the US medical industry is going after a market with an estimated revenue of $5bn. I mean, what’s in it for them?

I’m just saying the argument you sometimes hear “big pharma are an important influence on pushing the trans agenda” isn’t really true. There are far more important influences.

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