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Original poster

JR of ScotGov's Section 35/GRR bill - next week

135 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 19:11

MBM have shared info on the 'interveners': Scottish Trans/Equality Network, Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, and the ICDR:

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/11/who-are-the-interveners-in-the-judicial-review-of-the-uk-governments-use-of-section-35/

'Robin Moira White, Adam Wagner, Sam Fowles and Stephanie Davin are also assisting in the proceedings'

Who are the interveners in the judicial review of the UK Government’s use of Section 35? - Murray Blackburn Mackenzie

The judicial review of the UK Government’s decision to invoke Section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 in respect of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill will be heard in the Outer House of the Court of Session in Edinburgh from 19-21 September. La...

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/11/who-are-the-interveners-in-the-judicial-review-of-the-uk-governments-use-of-section-35

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ILikeDungs · 19/09/2023 15:14

Looks like Stonewall has a loud voice in this hearing.

CebelloRojo · 19/09/2023 15:09

How many times have Stonewall been mentioned? Since when has Stonewall been an expert in the Public Sector Duty?
I cannot believe they are using their evidence as expert in areas that are not their areas of expertise

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/09/2023 15:03

Ha, yes - just came here to post that. Lady Haldane and the barrister representing ScotGov are both less informed than pretty much anyone in the FRW folder.

CebelloRojo · 19/09/2023 14:59

Like many of us, she’s just had the WTF moment and understood the utter madness of the system

CebelloRojo · 19/09/2023 14:58

I think she’s just realised the implications of this. Scales falling from her eyes in real time

ILikeDungs · 19/09/2023 14:58

Was just going to ask this Celello

CebelloRojo · 19/09/2023 14:57

Lady Halfene has just asked if it’s true that official identification such as birth vets and passports can be changed without a GRC.
How does she not know this?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 14:02

Thanks to @ArabeIIaScott and others for the live commenting!

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Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 12:49

ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:43

I do hope nobody mentions Andrew Miller. Or Isla Bryson. Or Katie Dolatowski.

Those aren't 'other countries', of course. They are all Scottish examples.

i cant believe she came out with that drivel. as if Pink leggings never happened or existed to scupper everything!

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:43

I do hope nobody mentions Andrew Miller. Or Isla Bryson. Or Katie Dolatowski.

Those aren't 'other countries', of course. They are all Scottish examples.

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:42

Bain says there is "no credible evidence" from other countries that have a system of self ID of a risk of "systemic risk" of predatory men identifying as women to perpetuate violence against women and asks why the Sec of State thinks otherwise - Mandy Rhodes

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1704097975939612713

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1704097975939612713

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JanesLittleGirl · 19/09/2023 12:29

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 12:19

Ignoring the money issue for a second, hopefully we'll all be at the old peoples home by the time this finishes winding its way through the courts . The one good thing is if it takes ages it can't come into law!

Show quote history

It may not drag on forever. Here is an extract from today's Telegraph:

"However, SNP sources told The Telegraph he may not appeal to the UK Supreme Court if the Court of Session delivers a clear rejection of his case."

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:27

'The Lord Advocate is a political appointment. It is a ministerial position in Scotland. Why did Nicola Sturgeon appoint the unionist Dorothy Bain to the position? At the time of the appointment last year, it was already known that the certification of the Referendum Bill as legal would be a crucial task for the new Lord Advocate.Why on earth not appoint a nationalist who would certify?

The answer is simple. Nicola Sturgeon is much more interested in identity politics than in Independence. Bain’s job is to see the justice system through these changes all of which are the highest priority on Sturgeon’s agenda:

  1. Abolition of jury trials in sex assault cases
  2. Establishment of misogyny as a hate crime and prosecution of sexist speech as a criminal offence
  3. Reform of Gender Recognition Act
  4. Abolition of “Not proven” verdict and conforming Scottish system to the English model
  5. Continued clampdown prosecutions on “extremist” independence supporters and republicans, using breach of the peace, harassment, threatening communication, contempt etc etc.

Those are Bain’s tasks. That is the agenda for which Sturgeon selected her.'

Craig Murray.

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:24

I expect you may get your wish, Beetle. It's all showboating. The Scotgov don't really want independence anymore, they just need to occasionally show the semblance of 'fighting' Westminster. They'll be quite hppy for it to drag on while the country goes down the tubes.

I expect we'll see an election before this is resolved.

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Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 12:19

ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:07

So this is going to drag on for ages, costing us all many thousands of pounds.

Fantastic. That's what we need - fuck the roads, ferries, schools and hospitals!

Ignoring the money issue for a second, hopefully we'll all be at the old peoples home by the time this finishes winding its way through the courts . The one good thing is if it takes ages it can't come into law!

Melroses · 19/09/2023 12:15

Priorities 🤷‍♀️

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:07

So this is going to drag on for ages, costing us all many thousands of pounds.

Fantastic. That's what we need - fuck the roads, ferries, schools and hospitals!

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 12:06

BBC analysis:

'There can hardly be a more fundamental issue than what it means to be a man or a woman.
Judge Lady Haldane, in civilian attire rather than robe and wig as this is a civil not a criminal case, is familiar with the topic, having issued a hotly-debated ruling about the definition of sex last year.
But the Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain KC, representing the Scottish government, says these proceedings are different.
The court, she says, is not being asked to rule on whether changes to gender law approved by Holyrood “could or should have been different or better.”
Rather, argues Ms Bain, the issue is whether or not the Scottish Secretary Alister Jack overstepped his constitutional authority in deciding to block the bill.
She argues that he did. The UK government obviously disagrees, as we will hear from its counsel, David Johnston KC, in the coming days.
But whatever happens here, in the airy, wood-panelled courtroom number one of Edinburgh’s Parliament House, is unlikely to be the end of the matter.
An appeal to a panel of three judges in what is known as the Inner House of the Court of Session may well follow.
And, given that the case hinges on the unprecedented use of a provision of the Scotland Act which established devolution, it would be odd indeed if it did not end up before the UK Supreme Court in London.'

The 2019 Trans Pride march in Dundee

Government wins legal case over definition of woman

The Scottish government has defeated a legal challenge over how it defined a "woman" in a bill.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63956604

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Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 12:03

this woman is lulling me into a deep sleep.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 11:59

Lady Haldane brings up ForWomen Scotland's upcoming appeal. 'this case might need to be re argued if the law changes again w the FWS case.'

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 11:52

That's so fucking disingenuous.

Ignoring all of the issues raised repeatedly by women and legal experts. That's an insult, Dorothy Bain.

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 11:51

DB is suggesting the UK gov are presenting it as a 'software issue'.

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 11:51

I think the confusing nature of the arguments reflect the fact that the Scottish Govt are trying to use the Section 35 to force a court showdown with Westminster.

Nobody really cares about the effects of the GRR Bill, and haven't even really given them much consideration. Bain has outsourced her arguments from Stonewall, a lobby group.

The GRR Bill in this instance is a McGuffin. A plot device.

What they didn't think through is the ridiculous assertion that this only impacts on trans people, omitting that changing the definition of sex affects absolutely everyone.

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