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JR of ScotGov's Section 35/GRR bill - next week

135 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 19:11

MBM have shared info on the 'interveners': Scottish Trans/Equality Network, Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, and the ICDR:

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/11/who-are-the-interveners-in-the-judicial-review-of-the-uk-governments-use-of-section-35/

'Robin Moira White, Adam Wagner, Sam Fowles and Stephanie Davin are also assisting in the proceedings'

Who are the interveners in the judicial review of the UK Government’s use of Section 35? - Murray Blackburn Mackenzie

The judicial review of the UK Government’s decision to invoke Section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 in respect of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill will be heard in the Outer House of the Court of Session in Edinburgh from 19-21 September. La...

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/11/who-are-the-interveners-in-the-judicial-review-of-the-uk-governments-use-of-section-35

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 12:16

Second part ongoing, current thread here:

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1704442959033176348

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1704442959033176348

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Manderleyagain · 20/09/2023 12:16

I don't think the fact lady haldene now knows you can change the sex on your drivers licence without a grc helps us. I got the impression (from live tweeting, not listening) that the argument will be:

  • a single sex association is techically for those legally of that sex
  • in practice membership is based on sex as on passport/drivers licence
  • no one needs a grc to change their passport/drivers licence
  • therefore changing the criteria for obtaining a grc doesn't impact the operation of the law on single sex associations

That might tell her what a daft situation we have got into without proper democratic debate, but I don't know of it will make her think the grr affects the operation of uk law.

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ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 11:55

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/dorothy-bain-attended-40-cabinet-30111774

'The Lord Advocate has attended 40 Cabinet meetings during the ongoing police investigation into SNP finances.
Dorothy Bain's seat at the top political table has been branded "conflicting" and further calls have been made for her unique dual role to be broken up.
Scottish Labour deputy leader Jackie Baillie said: "The fact that our most senior law officer and prosecutor is not independent from the government has been an ongoing cause for concern and the need to change this has been clear.'

Dorothy Bain has attended 40 Cabinet meetings during Operation Branchform

The revelation has sparked further calls for the Lord Advocate's dual role to be split, with the head of Scotland's prosecution service also serving as a member of the government

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/dorothy-bain-attended-40-cabinet-30111774

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 11:51

stealtheatingtunnocks · 19/09/2023 22:08

Dorthy Bain is one of the most senior lawyers on Scotland, isn’t she? One wonders how she got that job. I could waffle on without saying anything for hours to toddlers. Can I be Lord advocate?

Lord Advocate, appointed by Sturgeon.

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Signalbox · 20/09/2023 11:50

Fenlandia · 20/09/2023 11:39

Stonewall's submission has been released to the public, at long last

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1704430758725644313

(Haven't seen a more user-friendly version yet)

I wonder if that's a leak rather than with Stonewall's permission.

Edit to say I didn't read the tweet properly that says it is released by the Court of Session

Fenlandia · 20/09/2023 11:39

Stonewall's submission has been released to the public, at long last

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1704430758725644313

(Haven't seen a more user-friendly version yet)

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1704430758725644313

Signalbox · 20/09/2023 11:07

Just bumping this for today. Is anyone listening. I do find these legal arguments quite hard to follow.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 19/09/2023 22:08

Dorthy Bain is one of the most senior lawyers on Scotland, isn’t she? One wonders how she got that job. I could waffle on without saying anything for hours to toddlers. Can I be Lord advocate?

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/09/2023 20:20

DB's main argument seemed to me to be that this change in the law wouldn't affect the law, only the operation of the law.

She then spent quite a bit of time arguing that it wouldn't even affect the operation of the law - it would be operating in the same way for more people. But not many more people. Hardly any, really. And anyway the UK government had thought about adding even more than that (ignore the fact they'd decided against it) so the tiny Scottish numbers didn't count. Besides which the argument said 'might', and that's not evidence in the way that saying 'would' is. And some of the arguments might be wrong even if others were right - and if some of them are wrong that casts doubt on the ones that are right. And you don't need a birth certificate anyway, so it's all fine.

I think that was it.

Although I must admit I got bit lost around the point about it not being a problem if people couldn't use an employee of the opposite sex being paid more to prove pay discrimination, because they could use one of the same sex being paid more instead.

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 20:07

Did someone mention Mr pink leggings (any excuse to post this for the newer lurkers). This man said he was a woman. Scotland sent him to a women's prison.

JR of ScotGov's Section 35/GRR bill - next week
Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 19:09

DB's main argument seemed to me to be that this change in the law wouldn't affect the law, only the operation of the law. So that's fine.

Then also she said that this court case was nothing to do with the actual Bill itself or its merits or otherwise, but anyway went on to argue that nobody had any evidence that there were any harms to women arising from the course while everyone in the whole universe tried really hard to beat down the unbidden mental image of Isla Bryson rising from their memory like a giant pink dildo-vision.

Then I had to turn it off because other people in my listening vicinity had forbidden me from listening to the monotonous breathless waffle any further, so maybe she made all the good arguments this afternoon and I missed them. I think they were: Stonewall says it's fine.

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Waitwhat23 · 19/09/2023 18:07

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/09/2023 15:03

Ha, yes - just came here to post that. Lady Haldane and the barrister representing ScotGov are both less informed than pretty much anyone in the FRW folder.

I swear you could pick any regular poster off here and they would have a better understanding of this whole situation than these barristers/judges.

When Lady Haldane said 'I hadn't quite understood this before...', I was astounded given the Gender Representation on Public Boards thing.

Signalbox · 19/09/2023 18:06

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 18:00

The judge has only just realised you don't need a GRC to change your passport etc.

Show quote history

Oh yes.

Considering this is now her 2nd high profile case on sex / gender and how the GRR interacts with the EA you'd think she'd be thoroughly aware of all the detail by now.

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 18:00

Signalbox · 19/09/2023 17:35

What was the lightbulb moment?

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The judge has only just realised you don't need a GRC to change your passport etc.

Signalbox · 19/09/2023 17:35

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 16:13

well i am totally compelled by the scottish governments argument today. god its been a day of mind numbingly monotone waffle waffle waffle.

the jusge seems to have a better clue of things than montone voice did.

and the lightbulb moment was rather illuminating!

What was the lightbulb moment?

Boiledbeetle · 19/09/2023 16:13

well i am totally compelled by the scottish governments argument today. god its been a day of mind numbingly monotone waffle waffle waffle.

the jusge seems to have a better clue of things than montone voice did.

and the lightbulb moment was rather illuminating!

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/09/2023 15:58

Most of today's case seemed to be 'They can't stop something being done that will cause problems in future unless they can provide statistical proof of those future problems having happened.'

Which - as it requires a time machine - seems more of a physics problem than a legal one.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 15:55

Done for today. Tomorrow it's the UK govt putting their case forward.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 15:52

Dunno, vivarium. I was quite surprised that someone whose job is making a compelling argument .... didn't.

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vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 19/09/2023 15:50

Stonewall don't have lawyers on their board.

Garden Court Chambers can explain to Lady Haldane what happens when you take legal advice from a bunch of (very good) fundraisers.

I did try to listen to it but was bored to tears. Dorothy Bain is doing that deliberately, isn't she?

CebelloRojo · 19/09/2023 15:49

UK government barrister saying that Section 35 cannot be used in just “more important” matters as the SG have argued, it’s there to act in ALL matters than affect UK law.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 15:17

CebelloRojo · 19/09/2023 15:09

How many times have Stonewall been mentioned? Since when has Stonewall been an expert in the Public Sector Duty?
I cannot believe they are using their evidence as expert in areas that are not their areas of expertise

Yes. They're a lobby group, they're not lawyers.

This whole case is supposed to be about the fine detail of legal technicalities. So why wave Stonewall bullshit about like it's the Holy Grail?

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ArabeIIaScott · 19/09/2023 15:16

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 14:02

Thanks to @ArabeIIaScott and others for the live commenting!

Sorry, I've had to work this afternoon!

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