New sports club at DC’s high school only open to LGBTQ+ pupils and their allies

So can GC lesbians go to this club? Given that quite a few of them are affronted by the suggestion that males can be lesbians? Or should the males who believe they are females not go, since they find girls who don't want to consider then in their dating pool an affront?' LGB' and 'TQ+ and allies' are anathema.

If the criteria for the club is 'If you don't mind all getting along together without antagonising then come along' then it's just a club, no branding needed. But it's not, it's a sports club for kids with a criteria based on a political belief. Which isn't on, kids shouldn't have to declare allegiance to a particular belief in order to join a sports club.

If you require women and girls to peacefully tolerate and accept groups that focus on the beliefs that women and girls as a sex class must not be spoken of as existing, must be subordinated to the wishes of the male sex, must not be homosexual, yada yada,

then those groups must equally tolerate and accept groups that focus on the belief of reality of sex, and which focus on women and girls needs and interests on a sexed basis.

Instead of forming screaming mobs and shutting them down all over the place, like the rape survivor currently trying to be permitted one accessible group she can have help with her rape in, while male people have their preferred choice of three accessible options.

You can't have it both ways. I'm absolutely fine with religious tolerance and living alongside if it's reciprocal. But it isn't, is it?

I think you've got it the wrong way round.

We all recognise that these identities exist. (Although as explained above, gay, lesbian and bisexual are not identities, they have nothing to do with being trans and their interests are often in direct conflict with what trans people want.)

Trans activists don't recognise that women and girls, as in, biologically female people, have the right to exist.

If girls want to play this sport they have no choice but to pretend to be allies of people who don't think they have the right to exist.

i suppose thats why they've added allies. if you don't agree that these identities should exist then its nots for you and thats ok. If you don't mind all getting along together without antagonising then come along.

If you find their existence or beliefs an affront then it wouldn't be the best place to be

Isn't singling them out perpetuating the problem? Othering them, as common parlance has it?

In any case, the children in this group have absolutely nothing in common with each other?

If trans girls need a safe space from anyone who doesn't agree that they are girls and lesbians need a safe space from anyone who doesn't respect the fact that she is exclusively sexually attracted to other biological females, this group can't simultaneously be a safe space for both of them, can it?

So how should a school make sure children who often feel as other or excluded from mainstream sport feel included without singling them out?

I think the aim is to leave the sexual and identity politics out of a children's sports club.

What is the aim? to get the club closed down or open to everyone and a general rule about no safe space clubs?

Then why aren't nice trans people, and, I don't know, people like the CEO of fucking Stonewall, loudly and unequivocally condemning the trans people who do this?

Why did Allison Bailey get into trouble for objecting to the now infamous "cotton ceiling" workshop?

Excellent post Frood. Hoopy!

I know. Even putting aside the ludicrousness of referring to heterosexual males as 'trans lesbians', using the term 'non trans lesbians' is a depressingly misogynist way of referring to women only in terms of their relation to men.

"Non trans lesbians" 😂😂 The world becomes more and more stupid every day.

Great post Frood

And 'non trans lesbian'? I mean, for fucks sake.

t is manifestly, abundantly clear that there are posters on FWR who wish to cynically, inaccurately and belligerently frame a position of transwomen as predators of lesbians.

And the facts are that some are. The articles are up written by male people with TQ+ identities, the cotton ceiling thread lists many, we all heard the radio broadcasts by Veronica Ivy and the head of Stonewall, we all saw the Riley Dennis video, we've all got access to twitter. We know who has been excluded from Pride, we know which lesbian group had male people yelling outside because their definition of lesbian for the purposes of their group was female only - you can find the yelling mob on youtube. You can find the threads here where MRA after MRA has told them they have no business defining their body and sexuality in ways that do not validate men who say they are something other than men and use the word 'lesbian'.

Denying this is ridiculous. I can well see it makes you very uncomfortable, but it's rather like identifying that a male person is a lesbian. Reality and the facts are in plain sight, no matter how much you scold and shame people in a vain hope they won't look at them.

I'm looking. This behaviour by men towards women in the name of those mens' sexual desires is revolting. If you don't think it's acceptable, you need a major word with Stonewall and the male people behaving like this, not scolding women that reality is what you tell them it is, and only bad people believe the evidence of their own eyes. Colour me bad then, I am really not bothered by a desire to be liked and approved of by people who believe in treating women like this.

I'll tell you what else you will find, if you look? A Total Lack of any transwomen or NB people rejecting this behaviour from other transwomen, or from Stonewall et al, and standing up for women's rights to recognise sex and choose their own sexual identity. To have their own female-only term. To criticise things like the 'cotton ceiling' which was a workshop ffs to brain storm how men got the knickers off lesbians to have sex with them because the bitches wouldn't consent.

Fgs have the guts to own the reality of what you spend so much time here pushing.

It is manifestly, abundantly clear that there are posters on FWR who wish to cynically, inaccurately and belligerently frame a position of transwomen as predators of lesbians.

It may convince a few isolated people who establish their position solely through the rhetoric they read on forums like this, but it isn't convincing anyone in the real world who have direct experience with the vast majority of perfectly average trans people, who are no more or less likely to be interested in coercive sex than any other person of any other demographic.

And I hate to break it to you but non-trans lesbians are perfectly capable of predatory and unwelcome behaviour towards each other. I have been involved in warning members of social groups about this. We have never had to speak to any trans women about their behaviour to others in social groups, only non-trans lesbians.

Ally and friend are not synonyms. I have a friend who is Russian. She is a terrific friend but she believes that Ukraine should be an integral part of Russia. I am not her ally.

I can't think that anyone would ever confide adverse experiences to you, never mind risk sharing opinions you would classify as "anti-trans".

Unless we can establish that all the lesbians surveyed were biologically female and exclusively attracted to other biological females, that survey is pretty worthless.

Did you read some of these posts and quotes from lesbians who have experienced exactly what you say doesn't happen?

https://terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

Why you are so intent on spreading this misinformation is beyond me, but presumably part of your anti-gay campaign.

You are being completely ridiculous.

I know over 100 lesbians personally, and not a single one of them has any issue with trans people, or considers that they are under any obligation to date or have sex with anyone they do not personally want to.

Did you read that survey which showed the highest levels of support for trans people comes from younger lesbians?

www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/

Why you are so intent on spreading this misinformation is beyond me, but presumably part of your anti-trans campaign.

Yes. We are in agreement @MargotBamborough

That was kind of what I was getting at. If you say you're non binary because you identify as neither male nor female, then say you're only attracted to people with the same type of body as you, aren't you admitting that there are two body types and you are one of the two (i.e. male or female, and therefore binary) and that you can tell which one everybody else is too?

It's pretty contradictory.

At least if you identify as non binary and pansexual at least you don't have to acknowledge that everyone has one of two body types, including you.

The way I understand it (although definitions seem to vary) is that pan means attracted to male/female however they identify. Bi people aren't attracted to trans people. Certainly for me the qualities I like in men and women are different and trans men/women don't usually have those qualities. Eg I like men with big muscly arms and large hands. Trans men don't usually have those. I hate fake breasts on women. I'm sure someone will think that makes me transphobic. But whatever.

Pan makes more sense in terms of NB, i agree. Although my friends teen says she they are attracted to people with the same body as them. Eg females. Tis all very confusing at times.