New sports club at DC’s high school only open to LGBTQ+ pupils and their allies

If they did object they’d obviously be homophobic.

Excellent idea.

Someone in that school should start an LGB knitting club and state that trans students can only join if they are attracted to people whose sex on their birth certificate is the same as theirs, on the grounds that they need a safe space from homophobia and the LGBTQ+ allies ping pong club is not a safe space.

Oooops, there's the quiet part out loud again. Lesbians welcome, unless you have ideas some men don't like. Specifically, opinions on whether your sexuality needs to include men. Then this inclusive event is not for you, bigot.

And here we are. I expect my Lesbian: female homosexual top wouldn’t be acceptable either because it excludes males.

Nobody is saying LGBT groups should not exist.

This is not an LGBT group. It is a ping pong club which excludes a particular group of students on the grounds that they hold a legally protected belief.

This is not about creating a safe space free from homophobia and transphobia. (Indeed, as many posters have pointed out at length, there are aspects of gender ideology which are clearly and explicitly homophobic, such as the idea that lesbians should be open to having sexual relationships with trans women, and so for students who are lesbians and wish to play ping pong, this club is clearly not a safe space from that kind of homophobia.)

It is legitimate for a school to have an LGBTQ+ club for LGBTQ+ students to meet and connect with each other. I have no doubt that such a club exists.

It should also be legitimate for a school to have an LGB club which is only for students who are same sex attracted and does not include heterosexual students with gender identities, but sadly such clubs no longer exist and we all know the reason why.

But when it comes to sports clubs (or indeed, music ensembles, drama clubs, chess clubs and any other clubs which are for students to enjoy hobbies which do not have anything to do with their sexual orientation or gender identity), (1) all students should be equally welcome to join, and (2) the school should be operating a zero tolerance approach to any kind of bullying, thereby negating the need for specific clubs to be designated safe spaces free from any particular kind of bullying.

But this is not about providing a safe space for LGBTQ+ students to play ping pong.

It is about ostracising students with gender critical beliefs and excluding them from regular parts of school life.

Every time the apologists on this thread talk about gender critical beliefs not being a justification for discrimination, they are ignoring a crucial point. The LGBTQ+ people are not the ones being discriminated against here. They are the ones doing the discriminating.

There are 21 pages going through all this if you can be bothered to read it.

There's no such thing as "gay ideology".

Being gay means you are sexualltly attracted to people of the same sex as yourself. It isn't a theory. It is self evident.

Gender identity is nothing more than a theory, or an idea. It is the belief that everyone has a gender identity, and that most people have a gender identity which matches their biological sex, whereas some people have a gender identity which conflicts with their biological sex, and that it is your gender identity and not your biological sex which determines whether you are a man, a woman or something else. It is the belief that being a man or a woman is something metaphysical, rather than biological. It is absolutely an ideology.

And it is an ideology which always, always, in its application, benefits those born male at the expense of those born female. When it comes to single sex spaces, sports, language, all of it confers an advantage on those born male and a disadvantage on those born female, regardless of what anyone calls themselves or how they identify or what pronouns they prefer. That's why an increasing number of people reject it.

So no, it is not similar to being gay in any way.

Being gay is a fact.

Gender identity is a belief system.

They are not the same.

What is 'gay ideology'? Do you mean the fact that gay people are same sex attracted, not same gender attracted?

It's not acceptable to discriminate against students who do not believe in gender ideology
Using that logic it's not acceptable to discriminate against people who do not believe in "gay ideology."

In the real world, people with gender critical beliefs are going to have to live and work alongside trans and non binary people, and trans and non binary people are going to have to live and work alongside people who do not believe that humans can change sex or that gender identity is a relevant consideration when it comes to access to single sex spaces or competitive sports.
In the real world, lesbians and gay people are also going to come across people with homophobic views towards them.
Why should LGBT groups like this one not exist or be seen as a concern just for existing, just because someone holds homophobic or transphobic views against one of the letters?

If I want to join the ping pong club I want it to be inclusive of everyone.

I don't think a school should be supporting a ping pong club which excludes students with gender critical beliefs any more than it should support a ping pong club which excludes trans and non binary students.

A big part of the purpose of school, particularly extra curricular activities, is to prepare students for the real world. In the real world, people with gender critical beliefs are going to have to live and work alongside trans and non binary people, and trans and non binary people are going to have to live and work alongside people who do not believe that humans can change sex or that gender identity is a relevant consideration when it comes to access to single sex spaces or competitive sports.

In the real world those people are going to have to rub shoulders and be civil to each other despite their differences, so they might as well start doing that in ping pong club.

It's not acceptable to discriminate against students who do not believe in gender ideology.

You've just carefully explained that 'LGBT' actually means only T. Why would T feel excluded by same sex orientation? They could just look the other way and say 'that person is not interested in dating me'.

If I can’t go somewhere in my LGB Alliance T-shirt and expect to be safe and welcome, that place is not LGB friendly. Whatever it calls itself
Why would you want to go to an LGBT inclusive space wearing a tshirt that actively excludes one?
It'd be like going to it in a GBT tshirt and then all the lesbians going "I'm not included 😭) and me going but I'm GBT friendly, why am I not included?
I just don't agree with the ideology of the L!"
Then taking exception when I'd be (rightly!) not welcome.

Tell me that you don't understand discrimination without telling me that you don't understand discrimination.

I feel sorry for the kids having to put up with ignorant teachers who think TQ+ has anything to do with being gay or bisexual. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Not to mention the fact that this group is overtly using its own beliefs to discriminate. Against gender critical students.

But being gender critical isn't equivalent to being homophobic.

It's a belief worthy of respect in a democratic society.

It is a protected belief under the Equality Act.

Can you think of any other protected characteristic under the Equality Act which can form the basis of your exclusion from a completely unrelated activity in a state school in the UK?

This club is for anyone who isn't gender critical
Well yes, that makes sense as it's for LGBT people - a better analogy than the Christian /Muslim one would be not wanting anyone with homophobic views attending as it could be problematic
Plus the "I can hold my beliefs" yes you can, but not to use them to potentially discriminate

Can’t believe someone has been stinking up the thread for nine pages moaning about a variant on the well-known phrase “alphabet people.”

The fact you won't say just implies that no you haven't been to the school to raise your concerns, you just wanted to come here to have a moan in what you thought was a like minded space about special alphabet children (your words) instead

If I can’t go somewhere in my LGB Alliance T-shirt and expect to be safe and welcome, that place is not LGB friendly. Whatever it calls itself.