Cheryl Hole on LGBTQ representation

Well yes, The Slits were reclaiming the insult in the way that LGB is now reclaiming Queer. Difference is, men are still accorded and permitted more cultural power and gay men have been given a free pass when it comes to sexism and misogyny.

This is well expressed, but apart from being clear and well put I don't see how this is any different from people justifying the cancellation of Graham Linehan.

Not suitable, inappropriate, the venue should choose better etc....

I gave up on the BBC a while ago, I expect very little from them now, and I don't watch the BBC at all.
I can understand how the Cheryl Hole may be highly offensive, especially in the recent context of "bonus hole", but for me letting the general public see all the bullshit works to let them know the absurdity of what's going on.
The guy playing the piano with his cock. I found that offensive, but I want as many people as possible to see it. I want them to know this is the true face of what's coming. That the guy playing the piano with his cock thinks he's a far superior woman to you who gave birth to the next generation. I think that will peak a lot of people.

If someone wants to express stupid views I'd let them, let the whole world see how deranged they are.

Yes, and everyone really hated Courtney Love because she was a gobby woman in rock band called Hole.

It is not about the "right" or wrong "amount of effort to expend" it just is what it is. It is what it has now become. Furthermore, the most anti woman and pro trans gay men I know are hugely into drag. Gay men no longer get a free pass as far as i'm concerned. And the pushing of DQST is another manifestation of what happens when you think they do.

Can any historian give me some examples of drag queen names from Tudor times? 😂

Sorry, also whilst I’m derailing about feminist rock bands- it also plays into the female genitalia as terms for women and exploring that from a feminist perspective eg The Slits.

But none of that is the same as what is happening here- this isn’t a drag queen spotlighting how misogynists love to refer to women by crude references to our vulvas. He’s not saying “hey let’s explore how women are degraded by being reduced to a hole for a penis to go in” he’s part of it.

And I have no problem with innuendo, I love a bit of retro humour.

I think this is quite interesting. You're right - people are allowed to be offensive. I happen to think that context is important when it comes to free speech. For example, I believe people should be allowed to express racist views, but I wouldn't want to employ someone who expressed racist views as a teacher, particularly if they expressed those views in the classroom.

In the years since television has existed, television companies have made decisions about what is and isn't offensive. So for a long time they wouldn't broadcast sexually explicit content, or people saying the word "fuck". In 1978, the BBC decided that the Black-and-White Minstrel Show was no longer acceptable, and stopped broadcasting it. Right up until the early 2000s, there were shows in which white comedians used blackface, but I am absolutely certain that that would not be acceptable now.

Similarly, ITV dropped The Benny Hill Show because they realised it was offensive to women.

I think the BBC, as a national, publicly-funded broadcaster, has a responsibility to think about what is and isn't suitable for prime time television. They wouldn't show a white person blacked up (on MasterChef or anything else). They wouldn't give a platform to a Holocaust Denier. Maybe they should now ask whether they should allow a misogynistic man to flagrantly engage in a parody of womanhood on one of its most popular programmes.

I think the context of the Fringe - which generally has an "anything goes" attitude, and where audiences explicitly choose the shows they see - is very different.

I don't think it's progressive to put a spotlight on somebody whose entire act is to make cheap and degrading jokes about women. I think that's quite regressive and problematic, and that complaints deserve to be made.

Equally I don't think it's progressive to cancel Glinner under the guise of being inclusive.

I nearly posted this yesterday but it didn’t seem entirely fitting at the time. But now it is. (I’ve taken this from Wikipedia but I’m old enough to remember Courtney Love being quoted at the time).

In Euripides' Medea, when she kills the bride and her own child, she says "There's a hole that pierces my soul." [And] my mother's this kind of new age psychologist, and I said "You know, I had this terrible childhood," and she said "Well, you can't have a hole running through you all the time, Courtney." You know, and then [there's] the genital reference, go ahead and make it if you will.
—Courtney Love on the origins of the name Hole, 1995.

Hole are a rock band, they would not have been booked to perform as family entertainment, there is a place for adult themes- not everything has to be for kids.

He's got a range of children's clothing - https://www.teepublic.com/kids-t-shirt/11704079-cheryl-hole-from-drag-race-uk

If misogynistic 70's "jokes" are once more acceptable or even fashionable, why aren't we bringing back "jokes" about other groups, like black or Irish people? They were very popular

Or the Black and White Minstrel Show? That wasn't even actually making jokes, it was just musical entertainment.

Yeah it is offensive, but when everything anyone anywhere finds offensive is removed there is literally nothing left. I feel a shake of the head, an eyeroll, and a sigh is about the right amount of effort to expend here.

Sorry, but the name Cheryl Hole is offensive and always has been offensive. It is not an intellectual exercise - it is an instinctive response to a disrespectful portrayal of women - that uses the same old topes and insinuations that have been used to oppress women forever.

I've never liked drag - have always felt that way about it - but it is only in more recent years that i've been able to fully articulate why. The pushing of 'queer culture' at every opportunity has turned many of us right off.

I've got gay friends, was taken to the Vauxhall Tavern ( Duckie) in its early says, and had always turned out for Pride - but now when i see a drag queen I simply walk away or turn off the TV. Increasingly the queens are referred to as 'the girls' even when not on stage. I've had enough.

Possibly unpopular opinion sorry.

The name is crass, so what, they are allowed to be crass.
Right now there are people discussing a comedy show being cancelled because Graham Linehan is one of the comedians. People are, rightly I think, up in arms about the impact on freedom of speech.
Lets not hop on that bandwagon. Cancel culture is not good.
Drag queens have always had very risque names, it is a form of comedy.
The name is offensive, but you know what, so what?
I feel it's probably a bit awkward for Cheryl Cole because it's obvious that its not a generic joke, but a joke based off her specifically. But she's a famous celebrity, they probably have to put up with all sorts of weird shit, this is probably the smallest of beans in the pile of beans that she has to deal with.
Let's not fight for free speech, and try and cancel people at the same time.

I feel the gender critical movement stands for reason and common sense in a world increasingly tainted by surreal quasi religious ideology. Let's not lose perspective.

How do I complain please?

drag can include women and none of them have to be gay, so I don't see what it has to do with inclusion at all.

It's a performance style. One that grew out of, and is more common in, a particular community - but is only done by a very small section of that community, and can be done by anyone. It's a bit like having a flamenco dancer as a contestant and saying that's inclusion of the Roma community.

If you read the thread you’ll understand why nobody’s laughing.

Rudderneck The band Hole weren't family friendly- many of the songs are about rape, violence and how women are treated as 'holes'. It's an angry name, I don't see the equivalence with the drag act at all, it's almost the opposite.

Haven’t read the full thread, but got to @LoobiJee’s tongue-in-cheek complaint & wanted to add…

Ive not time today or I’d do this myself, but…

I actually think that awful “explain to the kids” response may be something of a gift. I’m not surprised the initial complaint was rejected - I’ve experience of this, but also recognise they’ll perceive themselves as upholding freedom of speech etc.; I actually have some sympathy with this - in the current climate, it’s hard to see how “she” could be banned from appearing) BUT…

To state so explicitly that this is “family friendly” & could be discussed with children is a heck of an admission of the blurred boundaries & misogyny that wouldn’t otherwise be clear to many.

Would someone, in all seriousness, complain about the response?

But as far as the name: it's crass and vulgar, but I think there is already precedent for this sort of thing on mainstream tv etc now. The one that comes to mind most obviously is the band Hole. The name was meant to be edgy 30 years ago or whatever, but now it's just out there, I am sure many parents listened to their music and would be happy to talk about it with their kids

They are women though, "Cheryl" is a man. Reclaiming a slur isn't the same as appropriating it.

So - I think it's so stupid that having a drag queen on has become the thing. But, tbh, I think it's kind of a fad. It used to be the thing to have a camp gay man, or a lesbian, and I suppose that's not edgy enough anymore. (And I am not saying that there should only be straight people, but these shows are very typically tokenistic about their contestants.)

But as far as the name: it's crass and vulgar, but I think there is already precedent for this sort of thing on mainstream tv etc now. The one that comes to mind most obviously is the band Hole. The name was meant to be edgy 30 years ago or whatever, but now it's just out there, I am sure many parents listened to their music and would be happy to talk about it with their kids.

Which I suppose goes to show, when it becomes a thing to push what is edgy, in 30 years time it will just be part of the general culture and not edgy any more. So better think about whether that is a good idea.

I’m still waiting for the BBC to give me a “family friendly” way of explaining what a C. Hole refers to (is that cunt hole, cervix hole, cum hole, ???). Revolting.

I have recently been told that drag can include women and none of them have to be gay, so I don't see what it has to do with inclusion at all.

Its all just so fucking boring. Woman hating, sex clown bullies, masquerading as "she" and being enabled to sexualise a fucking cheese sandwich while simulating oral sex with John bloody Torode. Just fuck off

This is rubbish.. if you think anyone was simulating oral sex on Masterchef you are mad

I believe it's called a joke