If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

I remember my mum allowing me to wear whatever clothes I wanted, whereas Elliot writes about being forced to conform to feminine dresses/bows in hair etc.

It's interesting how many people who identify as trans had a childhood where they were forced into very stereotypical gender roles.

From the MN thread back in 2018:

A big part of her defense was that she was confused and distressed by her sexuality and gender (thus leading you to kill - as you do). Shortly after release Jones went to a trans clothes shop and took the shop assistant hostage, stuck a lemon in her mouth and violently assaulted her and tried to rape her. Jones only stopped when she failed to become aroused with her "female penis". Jones claimed she was driven to commit the crime to be put back in prison in order to get the gender reassignment surgery she needed. She was given an indeterminate sentence but was released after several years.

Also the fact that Cox went as far as to support this organisation, record a video in support of Blast, without for one minute thinking to ask what Blast's crime was. That, I think, illustrates the unthinking leap to support someone for their 'identity' that we are now dealing with.

The fact of someone being a transwoman means they get instant, unquestioning support - we saw similar with Sarah Baker in the UK, who shared a platform with Labour MPs, despite a history of kidnap and torture and violence and despite making overt threats to harm or kill women. I could list other instances of violent men being lauded, brought into parliament, etc.

Yes, excellent point. Karen Jones for example, who murdered a man and attempted to rape a woman in a shop, and claimed it was because of his struggle to deal with his womanly identity. Went on to be invited to speak in the House of Lords about trans prisoners.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3180050-Invited-to-talk-at-the-House-of-Lords

Thanks for articulating that.

Its the mismatch between the fantasy presented by Cox on a TV show and the reality of Blast and his vicious, horrible crimes that I find especially galling.

Also the fact that Cox went as far as to support this organisation, record a video in support of Blast, without for one minute thinking to ask what Blast's crime was. That, I think, illustrates the unthinking leap to support someone for their 'identity' that we are now dealing with.

The fact of someone being a transwoman means they get instant, unquestioning support - we saw similar with Sarah Baker in the UK, who shared a platform with Labour MPs, despite a history of kidnap and torture and violence and despite making overt threats to harm or kill women. I could list other instances of violent men being lauded, brought into parliament, etc.

Nobody should be discriminated against for their trans status, of course. But equally, presuming someone must be unquestioningly supported because of it creates a dangerous situation.

I think I assumed that people who wanted to restrict trans rights

Again OP I'd like to understand what you mean by "trans rights"?

’cis’ tells us women identify with their gender where gender is a set of stereotypes and behavioural expectations that oppress us. It suggest women are oppressed, suffer disadvantage in society because that is what we identify with. It is victim blaming - women are responsible for their mistreatment. It is the fault of women in Afghanistan that they have had their human rights removed, or the girls in Nepal that they died in menstrual huts, it is the fault of women that they must cover their heads in Iran or be beaten and imprisoned, that it is women’s fault if she suffers from domestic violence - that is what they identify with.

’Cis’ is extreme misogyny.

I reject cis because it's a descriptor when I don't need one. I'm a woman.

As far as what GC think they should do - they should stop expecting everyone else to live a lie to uphold their fantasy. They should stop expecting us to pretend we do not see what we see.

I object to cis for two main reasons. 1. It's a Latin prefix meaning 'on this side of', co-opted by a social science researcher in 1994, with the intention of referring to women as a sub set of their own sex class. It's made up nonsense.

1. We are told that we must be referred to and refer to ourselves as cis. I'm not into compelled speech.

Please don't use the prefix "cis" in reference to natal women; it's unnecessary and disrespectful.

I think I assumed that people who wanted to restrict trans rights would equally want to restrict my rights.
What specifically are rights that trans people do not have? Unless those perceived rights include males in women's single sex spaces or sport, or claiming that humans can change sex, I'm not sure what rights trans people are lacking.

Sexuality or sex-based preferences - homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual - have nothing to do with the feelings and perceived identity of the trans ideology. Adults have the right to sleep with other consenting adults who will have them (to paraphrase JKR), and I make no judgment or critique of those consenting adults - enjoy yourselves.

The expectation that I will acknowledge a male's inner feeling that he is something other than his sex which was set at conception is something I will not do. A male such as Cox or a female such as Page cannot convince me to believe they are anything but the man and woman they are, and to suggest that I must adhere to another's mindset or else is something I will not do.

What I would like is evidence-based, quality, accessible mental health services for the huge numbers of often neurodivergent young women and girls who feel desperately unhappy in their own bodies and need support.

With regard to Elliot Page - when a young depressed woman starts hearing voices in their head telling them to do things I expect them to get appropriate mental health care and therapy and not be ‘affirmed’ into a fantasy. Hearing voices should be a contraindication to surgery and cross sex hormones

Please don’t call me “cis”. I’m a woman. I need no prefixes. And I’m not responsible for honouring the rights and needs of men who want to be women when those rights and needs clash with mine.

This. "Cis" is quasi-religious language. I don't see that the lives of these males are anything to do with my life as a woman. If "cis" actually just meant "non trans" a trans woman would be a woman who identifies as a man. But it doesn't just mean that. It presupposes that I think these males are women. Which I don't.

@AmaListening "what does a society to support a person who has that experience, whilst also honouring the needs and rights of, and safeguarding, cis women?"

The problem is-I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. And one of the reasons we don't know is that there hasn't been any sort of discussion about it-because "no debate". The one trans person I know well enough to raise the subject with just says that he doesn't want to get involved-he has his life that he loves and has no desire to be an educator or a poster boy. And I see his point-although I do find it a little frustrating that the debate has become so polarised that moderate trans voices are not heard.

I was thinking about this today and that it's a good example of where the issue lies.
AFAIK, Laverne Cox pretty much just dialled back from that without anything more than a metaphorical oops.
And this is the problem, while feminists are trying to call out that we have a serious problem with the Blasts, people like Cox are unthinkingly providing cover for them.
Cox is still campaigning just as strongly against 'transphobia' as ever, without acknowledging that some of that has come from genuine worries about people like Blast.
Imagine how much progress could have been made if LC had said, "I got that wrong. I didn't realise that people like Blast would take advantage, but now I know, let's find a way that works for both trans people like me and that also keeps women safe"
But that didn't happen.
Blast and other predators get away with their behaviour and get to go to women's prisons because when we point at a Blast, people like the OP and Laverne Cox point right back at us and say but what about Laverne Cox.
Laverne Cox is being used as a shield for someone like Blast and that reflects badly on every single person who heard one name and whatabouts with another.

Elliot Page's description of a mismatch between the reflection in the mirror and the body itself, and the mental perception of what the image and the body should be is exactly what people with anorexia have always described.

No one has ever thought other that they were mentally ill, with a particularly dangerous condition (highest death rates of any mental illness) and need treatment. Which doesn't always work, but often does, eventually.

Poor Elliot looks so pitiful now, a five foot nothing balding wizened skeleton - and looks more like lots of anorexic women I've known than like any man. What anorexia doesn't need is validation and affirmation.

And what it really doesn't need is anything that causes extra physical damage.

This is the only form of body dysmorphia treated with affirmation. We dont cut arms off people who feel their healthy arm does not belong to them (yes they exist). We dont affirm eating disorders. We dont tell people who believe they are Jesus that they really are.

If your child identifies as a dinosaur would you support surgery to make them look like a dinosaur? If not why not and why is there a difference between that and a sex change?

OP, you said of Elliot Page: That there was a mismatch between his body and inner sense of self.

This is an incredibly common experience.

I'm sure every disbled person ever has experienced this - you try navigating life in a wheelchair and tell me if it expresses the true you.

My elderly relatives say it to me frequently.

People with anorexia say it.

People trying to complete their first-ever Parkrun, but struggling to breathe, who feel let down by their bodies.

People who don't like their appearance, or their weight, or the size of their breasts.

Some of these people will feel it more deeply than others and for some it will become a real problem in their lives.

None of that means that Elliot Page is actually male.

Let EP have every surgery and hormone treatment that EP likes. EP is an adult. I hope it makes
EP feel better. I doubt it will, but I hope it helps.

Please don’t call me “cis”. I’m a woman. I need no prefixes

I reject this cis label too.

The obvious hypocrisy of forceably labelling a whole group of people by labelling them as ‘cis’ is outstanding when you realise it.

Another person here who objects to "cis". Cis mean other, I'm not an other or a non man or a birthing person. I was not a chest feeder, I breastfed.

I know that many people outsourced their thinking on this and believed Stonewall. Again - study the case of Mermaids v LGB Alliance. Read about the CEO of mermaids. Read about lesbians being told they are transphobic if they wont have sex with a man in a dress.

“You cannot escape that feeling of disassociation. I recommend that you read the stories of detransitioners and those who remain transitioned who came to that realisation after always looking to that next phase of treatment to be ‘the one’ that makes them feel better. They also describe the euphoria around transition and around progressing each stage.”

Meant to add.

They often then realise that these treatments do not make them feel better. That realisation then comes with the realisation too, that maybe they have agreed to treatments they never needed. This might be due to not doing their own research, or the clinician failing to give appropriate counselling or due to pressure from external sources assuring them that these treatments work.

The detransitioners regularly report feeling that the community ostracised them for expressing doubts, or questioning anything or even discussing the failures of their treatment. There have been too many such accounts that it seems to be a feature not a bug. There seems to be huge pressure to never discuss the failures or the doubts, pressure to never introduce negativity into the discussion.

Who benefits from that?

I hate my body. I've had an eating disorder and consider myself extremely ugly. When my periods started before my peers and I regularly leaked everywhere, I felt even less at home in my body. My sisters and I were called 'the girls' and I hated it because it felt like I as an individual was never seen. There are many reasons and ways to hate one's body. EP describes nothing which is unusual for a woman to feel. If you like your body to any degree, that's pretty privilege.

Society treats dysphoria in a better way, as it does with other types

Please don’t call me “cis”. I’m a woman. I need no prefixes.

Agree and from me too

what does a society to support a person who has that experience, whilst also honouring the needs and rights of, and safeguarding, cis women?

Please don’t call me “cis”. I’m a woman. I need no prefixes. And I’m not responsible for honouring the rights and needs of men who want to be women when those rights and needs clash with mine.

The trans movement have very successfully planted the idea that trans rights are like other minority rights - they are not. Study the case of Mermaids v the LGB Alliance, you'll see blatant homophobia. The CEO of mermaids admits her husband was homophobic and that was a factor in taking her child to Thailand to have major surgery - and then laugh about the penis being too small to make a vagina. Where is the "be kind" in this?