If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

Excellent analogies. I’ve tried to articulate it before in terms of religion and non-believers, but couldn’t get beyond extreme terms like infidel and heathen, which as an atheist I’m obviously not going to agree that I am either of those things.

As with religion, I'd say they can do what they want, as long as I am not made to be a part of it.

If religious people want to wear crosses, or hijabs, either socially or at work, I don't care.
If they build places of worship and gather there, fine.
If they take time out every Friday or Sunday to pray, not my concern.

But if, when I'm talking to them, they expect me to say, "God willing" after every statement - not fine.
If my work has enforced morning prayers - not fine.
If I also am expected to wear crosses or hijab - not fine.
If forms ask you "What is your religion? A? B? Prefer not to say?", not fine - "No religion" must be a possible answer. Better yet, let's ask instead, "Do you follow a religion?"
If religious people tell me I am wrong to be an atheist, and need to be educated - not fine.
If religious people attack me, either verbally or physically, for my non-belief - not fine.

Thing is they will never be happy. If we gave up and let transwomen have the ladies loos and we had a sign saying (their beloved word for us) “cis” womens toilets then you can bet your arse they would tantrum to be able to use cis toilets.

I don't think it's true that nobody cares who else is in the men's toilets. For example, I would find it quite disturbing to meet LC in there! And it would have been considerably more disturbing to the adolescent me.

But that doesn't mean LC should be welcomed into the ladies' toilets, for all the reasons of safety and dignity. It's not OK to normalise the presence of men in women's spaces, particularly where women are more vulnerable because of undressing or private bodily functions. LC may or may not be any threat to women, but some men are, and some men take advantage of the relaxation of societal norms.

oh.

I just. My heart fell up in my mouth reading that.

Note too in this whole 'learn to cope' line this belief that a female person should not be expecting to want or enjoy sex, be an equal participant, expect care or interest from the male who wishes to have sex with their body as to how they feel or whether they consent. They are being actively harassed out of expecting a right to consent.

This frames women entirely as walking sex provision units with a social duty to provide unpaid sex work to male people under specific circumstances. Who should be punished (by corrective rape and murder) for refusing to do so.

Try looking up terfisaslur.com and then 'incels'. The crossover in rhetoric, the dehumanisation of women and the belief in the right of male people to use female bodies as they need to without the stupid bitch having ideas that get in their way? Oh it's remarkably similar.

If they really feel they are happier that way they’re free to do what they want.

Just don’t impinge on female language and spaces. None of this pregnant person nonsense. Don’t call me a TERF if I object to the new woke terms. Or do, I don’t care. It’s practically a compliment to me now 🤷‍♀️

Also don’t police how lesbian and bi women are allowed to live their lives. Saying that refusing to sleep with a ‘woman’ with a penis doesn’t make a person a transphobe. It’s simply a person’s preference.

Trans activists have called me and other homosexual female people (previously known as lesbians, that word's now been taken and 'adapted' so that it works to serve the interests of male people) 'homophobic' for asking to be allowed to be out and proud about being homosexual - exclusively same sex attracted, and not interested in joining lesbian groups or dating or having sex with any male person regardless of their identity choices. Nothing against them or their identity, but I'm homosexual.

How this is 'homophobic' never gets explained, and only works if you first make 'homosexual' mean something that serves gender ideology instead of meaning 'same sex attracted'. But the head of Stonewall says I'm a sexual racist, and TW have appeared on radio 4 explaining (as did Riley Dennis, well known TW), that homosexual women can 'learn to cope' with sex with male people, and need to 'overcome their sexual preference/genital prejudice'.

Which is homophobia on crack and conversion therapy.

And an art gallery in the states held an exhibition a few years back celebrating 'queer culture' which included proudly displaying blood stained t shirts and barbed wire wrapped baseball bats for the torture and murder of lesbian women who excluded male people from their bodies.

Yes. You’d be repelled by ANY body you could possibly have had. Because the problem is not your body 🤷🏽‍♀️

I also reject cis. It is a term used in chemistry and geography. It has fuck all to do with women or men.

There would be, but where would they see the arguments? MN is the only place I’ve seen them, having been banned from Twitter before GC views were tolerated on there. I had no stance on the trans issue before I found Mumsnet last winter. It baffled me, I couldn’t see how JKR’s infamous essay was “transphobic” but if so many people were saying it was, then it must be. So I never engaged with the subject, never liked or retweeted ANYTHING related, certainly never commented.

So it’s easy to see how #NoDebate took such hold, nobody wants to be accused of being a transphobe. And the adoption of T to the LGB meant to many people that it’s somehow homophobic to raise concerns about trans ideology, when at GIDS there was an in-staff “joke” that the service was trying to “trans the gay away”.

Yes, @AmaListening you can stick that prefix 'cis' in the bin, women are not a subset of their own sex class, they are the sex class.

The 'cis' prefix is all part of the dystopian world envisaged by TRAs - transwomen are women but women, actual adult human females are 'cis' or menstruators, cervix havers, birthers, etc. - do you see the glaring issue here OP?

And this:

And the hypocrisy of trans women - or their TRA megaphones - saying they’re too scared to use the men’s because of the men in there,

TW are fawned over and their fear of men accepted and broadcast, women say the same and it's all NAMALT, why are you fearful, why are you making women sound weak?

As if Laverne Cox, your example OP, would ever be intimidated or in any danger in the men's toilets.

I admire you for having the capacity to listen and change your mind, OP. I wish there were more people like you.

Have we covered off the growing number of adolescents and young people who have said they are trans as a lifestyle choice? This is coming directly from them.

There are so many diverse groups under that trans umbrella. It is so concerning that they are treated as a homogeneous group with regards to treatment options.

'not there yet'

We were there until a few years ago, the new 'rules' about fashion (which don't thank goodness apply to old women, we can stomp round happily in our skechers and feel the breeze through the hair we cut short in our late teens if we like) baffle me. Why have the young become so conformist?

They don't have to 'become trans to be accepted'. They 'become trans' because they believe they have an opposite sex gender identity (whatever that is).

Where do you live that has 'fairly rigid social 'rules' of what is acceptable'? In the UK the 'rules' are pretty flexible, but obviously in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia they are less so.

I’ve heard/read men saying that nobody notices or cares who else in in the men’s toilets - problem solved, surely? Everyone can use the men’s and leave the women’s facilities for women!

And the hypocrisy of trans women - or their TRA megaphones - saying they’re too scared to use the men’s because of the men in there, yet cannot accept or tolerate that yes, that’s exactly why we don’t want men in the women’s loos, no matter how those men feel on the inside. No solidarity with women there, no evidence of “sisterhood”.

Not RTFT but I want a world where gender norms are less constrictive. At the moment we have fairly rigid social 'rules' of what is acceptable.

I would like it to be socially acceptable for men and women to wear clothing of their choice, make-up if they want, hair styles of their choosing...etc.

If the world was actually like this, and it became normal for women and men to present themselves in a hugely diverse way, would trans even be a thing?

I appreciate we're not there yet which is why the people you mention have to become trans to be accepted. It's a shit situation.

We hear this quite often. There are enough out there who choose to use other alternatives. Both male and female trans people.

It makes a mockery of the mindless whataboutery attempted on this board repeatedly . The ‘what about the male people’s safety’ argument? There are plenty of males who are trans even using the male toilets without an issue. Women have searched for statistics on male on trans attacks in the male toilets, there seem to be none at all.

And don’t forget that wonderful argument of ‘if a male person is going to attack you, they will anyway. And besides they can be prosecuted by the law after the attack’. That one is used to shame women into silence but is never used on male people who are portrayed as most vulnerable and need female human shields. The hypocrisy is so fucked up and ingrained and so many people cannot see it.

“But someone who has such a dislike of their body doesn't know how they'd actually feel if they had a different body. They might feel just as repelled by any other body they might have had.”

This is such a good point.

I am posting this as another example of the degree of coercion that is happening here in the UK when women and girls make requests for single sex spaces.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12398959/Retired-solicitor-left-deaths-door-surgery-cancelled-dared-object-trans-woman-nurse-hospital-room-tells-shocking-story-vowing-cancel-Im-not-scared-speak-out.html

I am sure regulars on this board remember this case. We discussed it extensively on the board. And were duly shame posted by some posters for discussing it, I believe it was said or inferred that Teresa was a bigot and deserved to have her operation cancelled. That the hospital was righteous in doing so.

This is happening. This is not a drill.

Also worth separating out: young girls and young women wishing to transition - listen to what they say, and it's to do with running away. There is no sexual component involved. Detransitioning girls and women also discuss this and are well worth reading up on.

Adult male transitioners are running to something, and the voices of those transitioners and the wives and children left behind are well worth reading as they explain in depth exactly what, but behaviours very similar to those suffering from sex addiction are quite common in their accounts.

I have a trans woman friend. Known her for years, including when she was a biological man. She's now married to a woman and happy. She's had all the surgeries but doesn't use female toilets. She uses mixed toilets. She doesn't compete in sports. She just goes quietly about her new life.

I'm still critical of biological men in female toilets and sports. It's perfectly possible to gender reassign and not invade women's spaces.

The OP's post at 16:37 yesterday explains so well why the TRA side has pushed "no debate" so vehemently. God forbid people hear the measured, rational concerns of most on the "terf" side of the coin.

OP a phrase I think represents the feminist view on cases like Page's is:

No child is born in the wrong body.

It sounds like Page was deeply disturbed and unhappy. And equally, being forced to wear certain clothes, act a certain way, embody a certain role - I don't know what the rest of the family dynamic was like but perhaps the problem was that Page was 'forced'?

I do feel.sympathy for Page. However Page is a role model. How will unhappy girls who feel disconnected from their bodies feel on reading Page's 'journey'?. Will more girls be deciding that taking testosterone and having mastectomy is going to solve their unhappiness?