If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

Oh well said 👏👏👏

It’s really not rocket science. Why are you asking OP?

With the other people born with penises, or the unisex if they're not comfortable with the men's.

I think all us GC types would be happy to find a third way. For example:

Women's and Open categories in sport.
Enclosed floor-to-ceiling changing rooms and toilets. Swept, depressingly, for cameras regularly.
Safe prisons where no one is in fear.
Rape crisis provision for women, men, mixed, trans, accessible to anyone who wishes.
Shelters and other housing with provision for everyone.
Dating for same-sex, same-gender, opposite, all, whatever, with no fear of being accused of being a bigot and banned.

There is almost always a third way. But we have been told we aren't allowed boundaries it isn't affirming or inclusive.

Most of us started very #BeKind but eventually if you're pushed back and back you hit a wall and thus far and no further.

'but where will this man go to the toilet?' like it's some kind of gotcha

for heaven's sake

What should trans people do?
Campaign for trans -specific spaces, services, support, healthcare, sports events etc.
Agree to use correct biological terms to describe male/female body parts to avoid confusion.
Respect single sex spaces and use those designated unisex.
Accept that some people, although they support trans people in society, are gender critical and that is ok
Campaign for a review of the Equality Act.

Exactly this. Wear what you want, change your name, shag who you want.

But do not use facilities such as toilets or changing room that are not in accordance with biological sex. They have had cosmetic surgery, that's all, it doesn't change their biological sex.

I don't have a problem with trans people dressing/naming themselves/identifying with whatever gender they please. I don't want to genocide or murder people (despite what hyperbole TRAs choose to use).

Use the unisex. No problem. You can't change sex.

I'm a woman, I happen to have a unisex name, I wear pretty androgynous clothing etc, but I was born with a vagina, therefore I am a woman. Nobody born with penises should be in single sex spaces designated for human females.

Might make it worse since the shoulders will be more prominent

They can do whatever they like, whilst remembering you can't change sex.
A man can walk round in a dress, he's not a woman though.

'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

lol at the pretence this isnt goady af but on the minute chance it isn’t

the World would look pretty much as is, Laverne & Elliot would be free to spend as much money as they like attempting to pass as the opposite sex, they could wear what they wanted, sleep with who they wanted & no one would have the right to discriminate against them

however they’d use the facilities that align with their biological sec or use third spaces and they’ll demanding we affirm that they are literally the opposite sec because they’re not

sorry if you were hoping we’d all say that they’d all be rounded up, paraded through the streets on a walk of Shame & then put in prison 🙄

Do people really think a haircut will change this??

I think that's for Laverne to come up with a solution for instead of insisting that women are the ones to budge up, lose our rights, lose our chances to compete, lose our safe spaces.
Trans women already have the opportunity to compete fairly in sports in the male category.
Stopping them from competing in the female one doesn't stop them competing. It simply allows women to compete on a level playing field.
This is a example where rights actually are like pie. The TW already has a slice - the male category. They're insisting on taking the female category slice too, so that they have two and women have none.
The very fact that you're on here telling women to solve this problem speaks volumes about your attitude to us.
We're people in our own right. We're not here fix everyones else's problems at the cost to ourselves. We're not here to give up our rights so that male people can have more at our expense.
Why is it even up to women to solve this? Trans women can identify how they wish, do what they like. I genuinely don't care.
The only thing they don't get to do is remove women's rights while telling us that the problems caused by their own actions are up to women to solve. Sort out your own mess. We're not your mum.

Quite. If Elliot happened to commit a crime, should they be sent straight to a male prison?

Or suddenly will sex matter?

This was posted on the Trans widows thread.

Assuming Laverne Cox (I have no idea who that is) is male, they should use the male toilets and where sports are segregated by sex, should compete in the male or open category.

Eliot Page should use the female toilets (except if at a rock club in which case it is of course de rigeur to go into the gents if there is a queue for the ladies). They can compete in the female category if they have a normal female blood hormone profile, otherwise they will need to get a TUE and compete in the open caregory if their sport offers one (most major sports governing bodies have converted the male category into an open category: WADA, WR, WA, UCI etc)

HTH

Assuming that this is in good faith and you actually want a reasonable discussion.

Trans women are not biological females and Trans men are not biological males.

They were socialised according to their biological sex and have the inherent physical advantages and disadvantages of their biological sex.

This means that while for many social situations their sex can be ignored and the majority of people will respond to them according to the pronouns they have chosen, there are situations where sex does matter.

Toilets/changing rooms - as per biological sex or third space if available
Sports - as per biological sex or Open category if available.
Prisons/hospitals/mental health facilities/rape services/domestic violence services - as per biological sex

A Trans Woman wanting to participate in sports as a woman doesn't override a Females right to a fair and safe category where she can participate.

A Trans Womans desire to be seen as a woman and use a womens changing room at the leisure centre, doesn't override the rights of the females using that facility to chose not to be seen naked by an unknown male or to see an unknown males genitals.

It's unfortunate but we all have to accept that in life there are things we won't be able to do, that we won't be entitled to, that we can't access. I will never be able to be a dancer, I am fat, unfit, uncoordinated, clumsy, have dodgy knees and am generally completely lacking in the physical ability. That is one of my biological truths. Telling people I'm a dancer, dressing the part and insisting in being included in shows wouldn't make it true, would affect the other dancers in the show, would potentially prevent someone better having a place, would be generally disruptive and would require everyone else around me to lie.

Ok, so in your ideal world, where would Laverne Cox go to the toilet, if out in public? If she were an athlete or wanted to be a competitive sportsperson, how would she go about that - or would she just not?

Let's flip that. Would Elliot qualify for any male sport? No, right? Possibly jockeying or coxing maybe. Just maybe. And why is that? Why is it that men aren't concerned about transmen dominating their sports?

There absolutely should be a social stigma on men walking around in fetish gear, babydoll nighties, suspenders and stockings etc etc. Because yes it is a fetish and yes it absolutely should be a dirty little secret.

No one gave a shit 15 years ago about 6ft Brenda with the 5 o’clock shadow and wig who worked on reception at the dentists surgery. Literally no one cared, although people did notice. Today we (society) are expected to smile and nod at Tits Magee wearing a French maids outfit on the high street. Fuck that for a laugh.

I think you need to speak to other gender critical people besides your MIL.
Or read some of the posts on this thread. You very much have the wrong end of the stick of what it is to be gender critical.

I would like society to become more accepting of a broader concept of what is a man and what is a woman - so there are less fixed gender ideals. So Laverne would be widely accepted as one part of a broad spectrum of what a biological male looks like and lives and Eliot Page the same for a biological woman. People should be able to call themselves whatever they want and dress how they like.

I would like there to be respect by all for the few occasions in which biology matters - intimate healthcare and care, prison services, sport, assault and rape services, places where people are in a state of undress.

Laverne Cox had a major part in Orange is the new black.

It was incredibly manipulative.
In America, and not only America, women in prison are incarcerated with men whilst Cox is fêted for this performance.

The leveraging of empathy on that show was obscene.

I don't think I want very much. I would just like trans people and those who advocate on their behalf not to try to browbeat me into agreeing that people can change sex when I know it isn't true and not to try to make me deny what I've learned in my professional training and in the course of my life about the differences between males and females.

It would also help if trans women showed a scrap of awareness of what it's actually like to be a woman rather than ploughing into our spaces seething with male entitlement, and moderated one another's behaviour in this regard rather than women being expected to do it.

Someone thinks EP "passes" as a man and would be rejected in female loos.
Sorry to break it to you, us stupid wimmins take care of our own and EP is more than welcome to "come on in".
There are some female body builders who make me do a double take but once you've clocked it, well yeah... it's a woman.
As for men, maybe they need to solve the problem of "real men" vs the 'lesser men'? Male Sports in a skirt is still sports. Standing up to pee is still standing up to pee even in a skirt. Chopped off penis pee is still male pee...
As for pronouns, making people say what you want has always been a stupid idea.

When do schools go back?

Laverne Cox is biologically male.

So the toilets for the people who are biologically male. Or any toilets that are available for use by people of any sex.

The sporting events that are for people who are biologically male. Or any event that is open to people of both sexes.

I would have thought that was really obvious!

This. Just the same as everyone else who is not trans .