If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

They can call themselves whatever they like. If they tell me their names, I will call them by the name they tell me. I dont care what relationships they have (as long as its consensual) what they wear or where they work. I care even less about what surgery they have done.
As long as they arent using their job to brainwash children.
Men dressed as women shouldn't use female toilets/spaces or compete in female sports. So what should they do? Use the mens and compete in mens sports.
I don't do the pronoun thing, especially they/them, because I'm not a dickhead.

This is ridiculous. How is Cox any different to another man putting on a dress and a bad wig?
The only difference is the access to funds that Cox has had to afford feminisation surgery, perhaps some hormones, perhaps some surgery to remove a testicle or so (but he's kept his peen rights?).
They're both no different - they've just got different bank account sizes
A man is a man is a man and no matter 'pretty' he becomes he's still a man.

There is no such thing as "tru trans". It's just more money to enable Musk style has-lighting

They can do what they like.

What I expect our politicians to do is to recognise where biological differences between males and females matter and ensure this is reflected in laws and policies around, eg sport and single sex spaces.

I honestly have no problem with men living 'as' woman, a bloke can put on a dress and call himself Susan but I draw the line at where there is no acceptance or recognition that women are not the same as transwomen and we are expected to accept that we are literally the same.

So, accept reality is what I'd like them to do.

Here are my gender critical thoughts:

’trans’ is a product of a patriarchal, unequal culture where people with female bodies are especially oppressed (but people with male bodies are too)

’trans’ and particularly ‘non binary’ have also become categories into which people with various mental health disorders and traumatic histories ‘identify’, in order ro attempt to navigate a path out of this discomfort.

There are also a minority of predatory men who identify as trans and are a genuine threat to women and our safety in women only spaces .

’trans’ people should therefore do as they feel necessary in terms of asserting their own identity and asking others to be sensitive to their gendered self expression.

The law should therefore recognise competing rights of bio females and trans identifying people and protect both.

i think the trans community should stop insisting that all trans people form a homogeneous group with the same needs. Clearly transmen and transwomen are different to each other and have broadly different wants from society.

TW seem to be fixated on acceptance into female only spaces and perpetuating gender stereotypes that are at base level misogynistic.

TM seem to occupy a different area where they just want to quietly pass as uncontroversial. Most don’t seem to want to have the limelight in the same way.

the trans community needs to stop insisting that their members have a right to access single sex spaces, and the related insistence that their experiences should be centred in all aspects of life, regardless of whether it damages other people, or whether it means that they are requiring prioritisation above other protected groups.

I am GC but want trans people to be able to fit into society. So I think all toilets and changing rooms should be lockable and unisex. I don’t see the need for segregation, in fact I think it fetishises female weakness in an unhelpful way. I think we should aim for universalism in toilet and changing room design, so they are accessible for as many people as possible with disposal facilities for sanitary or incontinence products for both sexes.

This is so annoying. Would you ask this question if a white woman wanted to be a black woman? Oohhh what would you have this woman do? No! You’d just tell them that they aren’t black and therefore don’t know what it’s like to be black and can fake tan all they want…it doesn’t make them black. Why is a woman, THE most trodden upon person in all of society, any different??

do you believe a black man can look at a Chinese man and say “I should have been born Chinese and therefore I am Chinese?” No! Based on what? You’ve literally looked at someone and decided you want to be like them. But that doesn’t mean you know anything about them?! You’re just surmising that they might act this way or might feel that way.

I expect people to be who they want. Fake tan. Dye your hair. Have your boobs popped off or added on. Call yourself Shelley when your parents named you bob. Give a shit. But please do not tell me you KNOW what it’s like to be anyone other than you (the ACTUAL you). Because you don’t.

I dont know if anyone else has said this yet but in answer to "what should they do?"
Learn to live with and be happy with what they've got, what they were born with (assuming they havent had those bits chopped off)
I would LOVE to be tall. Alas I am not tall. Im 5ft3 and thats something Ive had to learn to live with. Im not going to "identify as a tall person".
Or get myself leg extensions! Im short and thats how I am.

I'm watching with interest for a response...

This is Emily winning a bronze medal in the men's team pursuit. Good for Emily and fellow male students.

Humans can't change sex. Some people may want to present as the other sex and that's their right. Absolutely fine to do that. But that means they have the right not to be treated any worse than other men (for example) who don't identify as the other sex.

So for example, I want Emily to have the same opportunities and access to facilities as any other man. I don't want emily to be harassed or suffer any detriment whatsoever. I hope emily has a happy and fulfilling life.

Where we as a society recognise that sex differences are real and matter, but, within the sex category, people are welcoming of those who dress and present differently.So I'd like transwomen to use male toilets, changing rooms, etc, AND for men to be broadminded enough that for them to do so is utterly unremarkable. And the same in reverse

Exactly this. People can wear what they want, act how they want. But donning a dress and heels doesn't make a man a woman, any more than having short hair and wearing a suit makes me a man.

I would like for men to be comfortable wearing pretty dresses and make up if that's what they enjoy, without feeling unwelcome in men's spaces. I would like toxic macho men not to make someone feel less of a man because of how he presents, and not take the piss if they enter a men's toilet.

I'd like trans people to get on with their lives without trying to invade women's safe spaces/sports teams etc and trying to force everyone else to join in and affirm their feelings.

Got enough answers now for your purposes @AmaListening and are you listening?

Exactly. Join or set up a mixed sex group if you're a transwoman and you want to play community sports with women.

Every women's team becomes a mixed sex space otherwise and it's not sporting nor fair.

No I don't see the difference. No matter what their reasons are for transitioning, neither will ever be women. There is only one way to live as a women and that is to be born female and live to adulthood. I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for anyone suffering with crippling dysphoria, but my main focus is the women and girls who will suffer if we all go along with this ideology.

Garrrr for a MN edit button male not make

Transwomen are a subset of the male sex class.

It's a cynical fabrication that toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, refuges were set up as single-gender facilities. Come on, be truthful, you know that to be the case.

They are single sex facilities.

Transwomen should use the facilities for their sex.

Female sports are also sex based. Not gender based. Again, you and Laverne both know this to be true so stop being so disingenuous.

And yes, LC is the same as Isla Bryson. Effort does not equal right of access. No-one changes sex.

I don't care what transwomen call themselves or wear or what body modifications they have or don't have. They should not be discriminated against in employment, housing, education, law, etc because of them.

@Hollyhead not read the whole thread but just want to pick something up.

Should my 14 year old DD have to play sport against 14 year old boys who say they are girls just because she’s not a professional? Do I or she have any say on this? Because I know for a fact she would not want this and I certainly do not. So I’m sorry professional or not make bodied people play in male sports or ‘open’ categories regardless of ‘professional’ status.

I'd like all the trans-identified males to get the hell out of my Lesbian social groups and go somewhere else.
It's not this woman, this Lesbian's problem to appease males or care about their special fee-fees.

Absolutely this. Do not force or expect people to agree with you or affirm your views, and do not use the single sex spaces that do not align with your biological sex. Apart from that, do whatever you want (as long as its legal).

I'm not sure I count as properly GC lol but happy to answer how I feel

I see myself as very middle of the road and have to say everyone I know in real life is of very similar views.

The toilet thing is overblown, I honestly think it's fine for Trans people to use whatever toilet, yes some creeps will try and cash in on that. Let's try and make it safer for everyone and normalise full locked cubicles.

Prisons need to be single sex. I work In a prison and am absolutely qualified to speak on this. Our prisons are under staffed and overcrowded, they are not built or geared up for mixed sex and it puts a lot of people at risk, both trans and cis.

I understand why a trans person thinks t heir human rights are being affected there but tbh if you landed in prison you already lost plenty of rights so 🤷🏻‍♀️. Whether prison is the right place for many of those currently incarcerated is a totally different (and valid) question.

I really don't think the case is made for trans women in sports. I've looked at the studies and I just don't see any that show hormones reducing male advantage so yes If I'm being honest, trans woman should not compete in women's leagues. Open leagues or nothing I think. I don't think that's transphobia any more than the fact I can't enter the Paralympic's, just and accident of birth

But are you honestly saying you see no difference between someone like Laverne Cox and the person in Scotland in the women's prison.

Both Laverne and Isla are still men whether they are in it for the long haul of to get out of a sentence in a male prison, both are playing at make believe.

@Somerville

This is such a to-the-point but sensitive way to put it. Love this

OK, so in the real world, Laverne Cox is male so should use the male toilet. If he wanted to be a competitive sports person - in fact if he wanted to participate in any sport where sex is used as a separator, at any level, he should participate with other males. My intention is not to be provocative, but to genuinely explain what the world looks like for most people who know sex is immutable.