If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

💯 All of this.

I couldn’t give a stuff about trans people so long as trans identifying males stay out of womens spaces and sports and the kids are left alone.

Otherwise crack on

In answer to the original question -

— dress and act however they please
— use changing rooms/toilets/rape crisis centres/sports facilities that are mixed sex or match their actual sex, not gender

Beyond that, I don’t actually give a shit. I’m really not that interested in other
people. As others have said before me, ‘I just want to be able to pee in peace’!

Oh don’t be daft OP…

Nailed it.

Is this supposed to be a gotcha because Laverne has breast implants and wears lipstick?

Laverne is male and should be using the men’s or the unisex and compete in the men’s category in sport.

it’s really not that difficult

in this debate, it's important to seperate the individuals experiencing gender dysphoria (who should be treated with respect and kindness just like everyone else and be able to access medical services they need) and the politicisation of trans issues. I don't feel the politicisation helps anyone including trans individuals. there also needs to be better legal frameworks regarding treatments offered to children, addressing other pre existing mental health issues rather than jumping the gun with surgery/puberty blockers. additionally protection of single sex spaces especially for women.

For me, ideally, everyone would realise that if they are uncomfortable with their sex, it is because of the stereotypes associated with them, not because they are in the wrong body.

But realistically, they can believe what they want, but they cannot demand everybody else buys into it and makes concessions.

Laverne Cox read a letter from trans prisoner Synthia China Blast complaining about his long incarceration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/laverne-cox-synthia-china-blastnn_5691789

Cox since asked for the video to be removed but the fact is that Cox's first instinct was to feel sorry for the man who tortured, raped and murdered a 13 year old girl because her killer, Luis Morales, assumed a trans identity. I suspect this is because Cox's first instinct was trans first, crime after.

But I cannot think of a single instance where a high profile woman has used their public platform to garner sympathy for a child rapist and murderer.

Brilliant post. So true. I hate that this is actually considered a legal test written into British law. So demeaning.

This. Why do people like Cox and.Page have such high opinions of themselves that they think the rest of us have to Cowtow to believe their reality?

I think rape victims and women of certain religions would be uncomfortable with this. And I'd prioritise them over TW.

And obviously TW should stay out of women’s sport

iI’ll use whatever names they choose but not pronouns. I use sex based pronouns. I value my own comfort and right to speak the truth above the feelings and desire for validation of trans people

@gleeclubforever

Can you explain how Cox "lives as a woman"?

There are a million options to choose from but I'll list a few

1. An Australian One Nation 80 yr old woman

2. An Innuit 19 year old woman

3. A 35 year old Grandmother in a slum in Bangladesh, living off scraps of food from the dump

4. a steel-worker woman at Teeside

5. A BAME care worker woman

6. a porn star

7. a white middle class woman who likes pearls

8. a 35 year old woman with HIV in a Cape Town shanty

9. a woman with learning disabilities who stacks shelves at LidL

10. a woman in Afghanistan who is coerced in to having her baby daughter undergo FGM

So..

Which woman do trans identifying males choose to "live as" when you say they're "living their lives as a woman"

I'd venture it's between 6 and 7
BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LIVING AS A WOMAN

It's all and will ever be about clothes

Of course trans people can continue competing in sport, just in the correct category. This is precisely why so many sports have converted the men’s category into an open category. This problem is largely solved as pretty much all of the major sports governing bodies have fallen into line and now have a female category and an open category. FIFA are still faffing about but this is mainly because they didn’t want to change rules right before the WC.

As an aside, the “women weren’t allowed to compete in the marathon until the 70s” thing is a myth. It’s true that there was no women’s marathon at the Olympics until 84 but women have been officially competing in marathons since the 1920s at least.

If you allow Laverne, you allow all males whatever their proclivities or criminal records.

We can’t distinguish on looks or perception - only the statistics. And statistically, women are at risk from males. Not all of them, but most sexual and violent assaults of women are committed by males. So no. You can’t just let the ‘nice ones’ in.

I would expect a transwoman to dress and style their hair exactly as they wish. I would call them whatever name they introduce themselves as.

I expect them not to use any female space or compete against females in sport.

I agree with quite a lot of gc views, I have a trans friend who competes in my sport. They enter as M50 ( male vet over 50) as there isn't currently an open category. I knew this person before and after transition. I use their new name and would use she/ her pronouns out of courtesy. I liked them before transition and I like them now. I know they are biologically male but I respect they are living their best life by going through transition and seem a lot happier.

Should people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (transabled) be allowed to have their limbs amputated just because they “identify” as a disabled person?

Mental illness is mental illness.

What should they do? It’s more a quesiton of what should society do for/with the mentally ill?

I personally am not for allowing mentally ill people to decide it’s okay to to self-harm / modify themselves physically.

I haven't RTFT but in answer to the OP' question:

• Dress and style themselves however they like
• Accept that surgery is a serious, irreversible change, not something to be promoted for likes on social media
• Don't force other people to pretend you've changed sex
• Don't appropriate women's rights when you're a man

To the gents loo and participate in men’s sport. Given TW are male it can’t be hard to understand?

I'm strongly GC and believe wholeheartedly that no biological man should be in a woman's space.

However, the only tiny difference I could probably come up with for people like Cox, Eddie Izzard et al is that as a woman, you wouldn't necessarily feel unsafe with them if you recognised them.

If I see a strange trans woman in a toilet late at night, and we're on our own in there together I don't know if I'm safe. I don't know if they're a violent sexual predator like Karen White. If I see Cox or Izzard, I'm not going to worry that they're about to attack me.

That doesn't mean they should be in female spaces, and it doesn't help women who want single sex spaces for religious reasons, for example.

I'm definitely not advocating for any biological man to be in a woman's space though. Even if they are famous.

The difficulties faced by trans people is not my problem. As long as they stay out of single sex spaces for the opposite sex. I give not one fuck about them. Caveat - assuming we are talking about adults.

I want single sex spaces. For clarity, that means no men of any kind in spaces meant for women.

That would mean Cox stays out of women's spaces. It's really jot complex.

To the poster asking if there's a difference between Cox and Bryson, I say no, not in any way that matters to me in the context of protecting women's spaces.

They should live their lives however they want. They should use whatever names they choose and I will use those names. They should pick clothing they like. they should do the exact same thing the rest of us do and try to be a happy, healthy person. Any plastic surgery adults get are between that adult and that adult’s doctor.

my only request is that no one try to pretend putting on a dress or cutting off pieces of a body actually changes a person’s sex. Legal sex should never change.

On a societal level, we should be willing to examine if any particular thing should continue to be segregated by sex. If such segregation is justified, that segregation should be based on sex, not gender identity. If sex segregation is not justified, then the segregation should end entirely.

Live and let live.

To be honest, I don't see that many trans people despite living in London. Sure, I see the occasional one now and again on the tube or street but I'd hardly say we are overrun by them. Most of the ones I've seen, try to do the best they can, much like everyone else.