If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

I think it helps to replace the word 'trans' with 'people with gender dysphoria'. It's much easier to understand that people with gender dysphoria should be treated sympathetically, but their needs should not override other people's.

Surely the likes of Eliot Page shouldn't compete in women's sports? Testosterone would give a huge advantage in certain sports (eg boxing). Has anyone a solution to this?

Hello @AmaListening I'm relatively new to this world, after being an ally as someone with a colourful group of friends, including TW and TM.

When I read posts from certain people (@ArabeIIaScott @MrsTerryPratchettespecially) I've come along way with my thinking.
Both the women above have really made me think and admit to myself and openly to my trans friends, how wrong we've been about the movement. And we really have.

I think what MrsTP said nailed it about the option of a 3rd space, as more people identify as trans, we as society need to make Allowances to grow with those numbers, ensuring that we keep women and children safe.
Just because I happen to have lovely TW pals, doesn't mean I should have been so dismissive of other women wanting to keep my friends out of their spaces, when I was.

A lot of shady fuckers are using the trans umbrella to do harm to women and kids, this is devastating to the lovely non predatory trans community and its why we do need to have a overall shift in more spaces.

It is very humiliating to say to someone who has had years of hormones, surgery, depression, self loathing and all the rest of the horrors that come with gender dysmorphia, "sorry Stephanie, you and your fake fanny of 10 years can't come in here because Keith in the wig won't stay out", but sadly, the option to either upset someone or allow a predator in a dress access to a woman or child, is abhorrent.
Transfolk do deserve respect, kindness, love and to live as authentically as they can and its a shame that means to an extent, segregation from the sex they have been so desperate to belong too, but ensuring safety of children and women, has to trump the feelings of others, sad as that is.

I will die on a hill that sending a transwoman into a male prison is absolutely not something that should ever happen, but nor should they be sent to a womens one. In tact or not.
If we can protect hideous abusers by giving them special wings, we absolutely can find a place for trans folk to have the same safety guaranteed.
However, that said, I'm sure that'll be a massively abused free for all mess when those who will abuse any system, abuse this one.

I see many transpeople now really kicking off when not being given access to womens spaces, because it is exclusionary, but if unisex is offered and they're still complaining, I have to ask why. Why do you need to be around women at their most vulnerable?
Frankly, they don't. My friends (one god love them, does not pass as a woman, the other does, other looks very much like a bloke with lippy) always use the unisex or disabled toilets, private changing rooms if ever needed etc, they're horrified at the behaviour of the new breed of TW, because they aren't helping any cause with that behaviour. They're just being damn entitled at best, scarily predatory at worst.

The sport thing needs a 3rd option also. Being trans is undergoing it's moment of liberation, then let's work with that and be proud to support people who are trans to pave the way for their own categories. Being trans as its own thing should be celebrated, if you've had years of therapy, surgery and hormones to live authentically as the person you were born to be, you're your own category. Lets protect that as opposed to pushing them into a box they don't belong. Let's give them freedom and respect and the handhold to make changes, without allowing the safety of the vulnerable become a complete minefield.

Laverne is a man and Eliot is a woman. In Eliot's case I'd strongly advise her to carry on using the women's loos, cos she is tiny and very vulnerable. Laverne can use the bloke's loos like other men.

Alternatively we can have third spaces for people who feel they really can't use the loo of their own sex.

@ASGIRC are you asking us to pretend that male violence is not a thing?

@Clymene 's suggestion is sensible.

No, so youve just confirmed what I thought.

This is not about being gender critical at all. It is just about a dislike/distrust of men.

This is all I needed to know, thank you.

I started a similar thread to this. It got horribly misrepresented by India Willoughby on Twitter. Wonder what will happen to this one...

OP this was the other thread in case you're interested. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4844407-what-the-gender-critical-movement-is-trying-to-achieve

I'm sure you're not stupid but Ive obviously not made myself clear @ASGIRC

So I'll try again.

If you're a woman who has taken so much T you pass as a man - use the men's toilets.

If you're a man - regardless of passing/not passing - use the men's toilets.

Very simple.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LA0L6-YsX8M

Actually sounds like a bloke

And what about the other way around?

If you dont pass as a man, use the ladies toilets
if you pass as a man, use the ladies toilets

Just... use the ladies toilets?

Or is it not about being GC, but actually about people who look like men?

Tell you what. We'll ignore the mastectomy scars, because that's just a bit of a giveaway.

But even aside from that, they've got such a feminine face, and female hips that at the very least you're going to be second guessing yourself. And I'm just going on static pictures here. I haven't seen this person walk, or heard them speak yet.

Nope. I'll just c&p that.

If you think you'll upset women because you look like a man, use the men's toilets.

If you think you pass as a woman, use the men's toilets.

And I'll add as you missed it:

Use the men's toilets.

Look, I can't stop people breaking the social contract (single sex toilets) - if a transwoman actually passes then by definition no-one will notice them in the women's toilet.

If they want to lie about their sex to access spaces that are not for them then that's on their conscience.

That doesn't mean that the less successful transwoman gets a pass too. Sad for them, but women have the right to challenge men in their toilets.

Just because my mate doesn't get caught pinching a lipstick from Boots doesn't mean I get to whine when the security guard catches me doing the same thing.

Agreed, and the same the other way, females should not be allowed in male changing rooms, hospital wards etc.

It's not clothing and feelings that make you male or female it's the chromosomes in your body.

Of course not, nor can you. There is absolutely NOTHING about this person that screams woman, unless you KNOW that he is trans and was born a woman. Then your confirmation bias can take over.

Can you really not tell that this person is female by looking at them?

Well, Laverne Cox is male, so I'd expect them to use the men's toilets.

And if they wanted to run the 100 metres then I'd expect them to be running against men.

Elliott Page, I couldn't really care less. I'm a man and not bothered if they want to use the men's loos, they're not a threat to me. They can run the men's 100m if they want, but they're not likely to get very far, or they can run the women's, as long as they're not taking any banned substances.

Yes, I really can see the feminine side of Brian Michael Smith, with his small hands and feet!
https://pridesource.com/article/ann-arbor-native-brian-michael-smith-incredibly-honored-to-be-first-trans-man-on-peoples-sexiest-men-alive-list/
It is the first thing that strikes me about him when I look at his pictures. Its how feminine he looks.

We know that some trans/identifying females ('transmen') can "pass" as men. That's true. I personally might see them as feminine looking men with their small hands and feet. Depends on when they started testosterone injections. But it doesn't take long in their presence to realise they're female as I don't feel threatened by them. It's an innate sense of 'knowing'. For these women, I'll happily campaign for transmen only spaces

Transwomen never pass. The walk, the smell, the entitlement. My neighbour has a rescue dog who was abused by males. She cowers in fright at the (pleasant) trans-identifying male who lives in our area.

Bu thats... a really big double standard.

By that standard, someone like Nicole Maines could easily use the ladies, since you wouldnt look twice at her, and she doesnt look like a creepy man.
But if you look like Laverne Cox, then you cant, because... reasons!

Noone is policing who uses what toilets
I think most women just want to be able to challenge creepy men in their spaces. And we all know its not possible to define creepy men easily.
Men get to use womens toilets with permission, not by default.

If you think you'll upset women because you look like a man, use the men's toilets. If you think you pass as a woman, use the men's toilets.

Simple.

As an aside, the “women weren’t allowed to compete in the marathon until the 70s” thing is a myth. It’s true that there was no women’s marathon at the Olympics until 84 but women have been officially competing in marathons since the 1920s at least.

Is that true? I'm in Boston and this is a fairly iconic photo here https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/athletics/news/29175/12475824/kathrine-switzer-first-woman-to-officially-run-boston-marathon-on-the-iconic-moment-she-was-attacked-by-the-race-organiser

I thought long distance running for women was only allowed in competition by the IIAF in the 60s/70s. I had never heard of women running marathons in the 1920s. (when I googled it I got dance marathons!)

Sorry - off topic.

Im really curious about something.
People say Elliot Page doesnt pass. Fine, whatever.

But what about a transman who DOES pass? (I know one or two).
Surely, by the responses here, they should be using the ladies toilets, since thats what they were born as. However, they look male. How would that sit with you?

I also know a couple of trans women who pass perfectly well. Theyre not all "amazons" like Laverne Cox. Should they then go in the mens toilets?

This is Mumsnet but that doesn't mean we're everyone's Mum.

It's not our job to sort out where everyone goes for a piss or gets changed for swimming, or to sort out sporting opportunities for everyone.

We are allowed to fight for our own rights without solving everyone else's problems first. We are allowed to simply say that we want our fucking stuff back.

'What should trans people actually do?'

Leave women and girls alone
Leave LGB alone
Leave children alone

I think that covers it.