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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

763 replies

AmaListening · 10/08/2023 20:47

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

OP posts:
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BCCoach · 11/08/2023 09:22

@Pallisers Switzer was the first woman to unofficially run the Boston marathon but somehow this has (in Americans’ minds anyway) been translated into being the first woman to run any marathon. Women were competing in marathons in Europe from the early 20th century: Violet Piercey ran a 3:20-something at the London Marathon in 1926, a record which stayed for many years.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2023 09:18

I identify as rich. Therefore I can walk into any shop, pretend to pay for whatever I want and walk out with anything I want. Stopping me is traumatic and makes me very distressed. Therefore I demand that my identity is respected. My actions have no impact on anyone else, as no one has been inconvenienced or hurt. If I do not get what I want I become depressed and want to hurt myself.

How is this any different to claiming you are the opposite sex and making demands at the expense of the safety, dignity and privacy of the opposite sex? It's bullshit that doesn't change a fantasy into reality.

Sorry, but no. You can dress how you like. But why should anyone else pay for harming anyone physically (and the cost of trying to put the surgery right). Why should they have to put up with the fantasy role play? Why should they be second class to someone else's unwillingness to accept reality.

The answer is no. No we don't consent to this. And that should be the end of that.

RavingStone · 11/08/2023 09:04

catiette put this brilliantly:

Every single time that a woman enters an enclosed space with an unknown male, this is an act of faith on her part, in which she plays the odds that he won’t choose to hurt her, or worse.

And the odds may be very good, but the stakes? The stakes are bloody high.

I am someone who has already paid a high price for an encounter such as this, and also an equally high price for an encounter with a known man in an enclosed space. Two different, dangerous people. One my teacher, one a stranger. Different races, different presentations, different hair styles. Only common factor was they were both MALE. Which is no surprise if you understand statistics.

The result is PTSD. Nobody would choose this. I wish my body didn't need to be assured that the HCP doing my smear test was female, for example, but it does. I really wish some kindness would be sent back in the other direction from TRAs towards women like me.

RoyalCorgi · 11/08/2023 09:03

The question is framed in an interesting way, because the truth is that gender-critical feminists aren't making any demands of trans people: all the demands are coming from the other direction. Trans women are demanding that we "respect" their pronouns, trans women are demanding that they are allowed to take part in women-only sports, trans women are demanding that they be allowed to use women's toilets, women's changing rooms, women's rape crisis centres and, if they commit a crime, to be admitted to women's prisons. Trans women are demanding that if they are health or care professionals they should be allowed to carry out an intimate examination on women even if the women don't want it. In other words, trans women are demanding a set of special privileges that are denied to other men.

All gender-critical women are saying is: no, you can't have those special privileges. Other men don't have them, so you can't either. We are not asking that trans women do anything. Or trans men either, for that matter.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/08/2023 08:59

To paraphrase Blackadder, EP is about as “convincing as a giraffe in dark glasses trying to get into a polar bears only nightclub”

but if EP wants to insist they are a man, that’s up to them. They’re not though & I hope EP remembers that sometimes biology does matter so they remember things like they still need to do their smear tests

Clymene · 11/08/2023 08:52

Here's Elliot Page with JK Simmons and Jennifer Garner. Garner is 5'8.

Page is a tiny tiny person.

If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
Soontobe60 · 11/08/2023 08:52

Whyjustwhy123 · 10/08/2023 22:33

@Hollyhead not read the whole thread but just want to pick something up.

Should my 14 year old DD have to play sport against 14 year old boys who say they are girls just because she’s not a professional? Do I or she have any say on this? Because I know for a fact she would not want this and I certainly do not. So I’m sorry professional or not make bodied people play in male sports or ‘open’ categories regardless of ‘professional’ status.

Totally agree.
we need to start at the very bottom rung of sports. That’s where children can show any possible potential in competitive sports. How can someone be talent spotted for, say, football if she won’t even play the game because she has to play alongside boys?

Chequeredred · 11/08/2023 08:51

Catiette · 11/08/2023 00:34

I’d like the extremes of the movement simply to recognise me as a distinct, autonomous being.

For them to ask me to accept they TWAW in order to accommodate trans people’s perception of themselves is to ask me to redefine myself as something I neither understand nor share - a gender identity.

For them to ask me to accept that TWAW to accommodate trans people’s perception of themselves is to ask me to accept my political, social & cultural recategorisation - and thereby give up certain rights that were contingent on my prior categorisation, designed to mitigate the disadvantages presented by my biology.

And to ask me to accept TW in female-only spaces is to ask me to perceive each & every TW in the image in which he perceives - or simply chooses to describe - himself; to replace my own perception of reality with his (the use of the male pronoun is important here in order to make this point).

Please think about this. If anything is negating a person’s autonomy in this whole, agonising debate, it’s this. Because this isn’t just a matter of courtesy. If it were, it’s still a huge ask - but it’s not. It’s asking women to disregard natural instinct & objective knowledge - that he’s far stronger than me; that he has the capacity to kill me - simply on an individual male’s say-so: “I say I’m a woman, therefore it’s ok.”

The last time I got into a lift with a strange man alone, I told myself I was silly to worry. He spent the journey deliberately intimidating me. Body language only, subtle… but unambiguous. Throughout that interminable period, he made sure that I knew, quite simply, that whatever happened to me next was up to him. Yes, I could try various things - struggle, try to get to the emergency stop behind him, yell. But, really, what chance would I have? He knew, & I knew, that if he, this total stranger, whose mind I couldn’t read, whose motives I could never know, wanted to hurt me - he could. If he wanted to do worse - he could. It was that simple. Up to him. Not a matter of 50:50 or even 70:30; not a case of I’d give as good as I got. He had all the power, I had, effectively, none.

Every single time that a woman enters an enclosed space with an unknown male, this is an act of faith on her part, in which she plays the odds that he won’t choose to hurt her, or worse.

And the odds may be very good, but the stakes? The stakes are bloody high.

I’ve never got into a lift alone with a man since. I live abroad, go out at night, walk home alone - I’m confident, I don’t limit myself. But why take this extra, unnecessary risk?

More than anything else, I want men in general to understand this. Most of us don’t live our lives in fear, but women must live with this unceasing, necessary awareness of our own vulnerability.

To those who say, But men are more often the victims of violence!: They’re also more likely to instigate it, & more able to resist. Women’s experience of male aggression is as prospective prey as opposed to prospective rival (however ill-matched). It’s different.

To those who say, you’re exaggerating: Look at Everyone’s Invited, & rape & femicide stats. Ask yourself how we can possibly know when a man may escalate or not.

To those who say, I couldn’t live in fear like you do: I truly don’t! I think a good analogy for this is the hazard perception test for drivers. I’ve driven across a continent & loved it, all the while continually, subconsciously alert to the parked car, the running kid, the red light. Similarly, I live my life well, but women do, instinctually, register (click!) the lone man, the (click!) dark underpass, the (3 points!) rustling bush to a degree that, I suspect, anecdotally, at least, would be unrecognisable to many men.

To those who say I’m reducing women to their biology, making victims of them, or - what was it? - fetishising female weakness?!: I don’t believe that acknowledging & accommodating the realities of biological difference is an admission of weakness or inferiority, or equivalent to defining women by their bodies. I in fact wonder if assumptions that it us say more about the preconceptions of the person interpreting it that way.

In summary - I exist, too.

This ⬆️

PurpleBugz · 11/08/2023 08:49

I echo what everyone else has said.

I would add something along the lines of recognition that this is an ideology and have it treated as such in our schools. I don't think it should be in schools at all as I don't think transition should be first response to gender dysphoria, if we have proper treatment the time it need we would have no children transitioning as they would be adults before everything was tried. BUT because we have C of E schools I would accept Gender ideology schools if clearly labelled as such and belief is not enforced for non believers in the school.

And divorce gender ideology from autism services. Maybe like the schools have clear gender believer services like we have some faith groups supporting autistic people. But don't state fund them they should be charities and NOT THE ONLY SUPPORT AVAILABLE.

Im open to different solutions for our schools and services for young people. My motivation is to protect the children

Helleofabore · 11/08/2023 08:47

I too wonder what OP wanted from this thread that that could not have got from reading. And reading the many articles published each week from feminists.

ApocalipstickNow · 11/08/2023 08:43

Maybe if the las 10 years or so had been all about encouraging men to be kind to transpeople and start accepting people who are different from them some of this would be sorted now.

Instead it’s been dumped on women to deal with, regardless of how we feel about that.

Still, never too late to start.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 11/08/2023 08:39

CatusFlatus · 11/08/2023 08:20

This is an excellent thread full of simple, rational and measured responses. I'm not sure it's played out in the way the OP wanted. I hope it's given some readers new insights into the subject.

Yes! Women don’t tend to tell others to die in a grease fire, do they? That is what MRAs do though. What does the ‘M’ stand for again?

Froodwithatowel · 11/08/2023 08:35

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/08/2023 07:49

Colour me utterly shocked the OP hasn’t been back. Are the screen shots on twitter yet?

I'm sure this thread will be extremely useful to MPs, SPADs and journalists lurking around. Come on in guys, we can explain this stuff all day and share the links. No leg work needed, we've done it all. For bloody years. Because apparently no one else was going to engage their brain and manage to think things through.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 08:32

It’s quite hard to find a red carpet/party pic of Elliot-era Page with a bloke, so here’s an older one, plus one of Laverne Cox with Miley Cyrus and Tyler Ford (both female, although I think Ford self described as ‘agender’?) and one of Cox from a Time Magazine party.

I post these to point out that you need some sort of belief or faith in the nebulous concept of Gendef Identity in order to believe Page is a man and Cox is a woman.

Anyone without that particular belief just sees them both as their birth sex, but with a gender nonconforming presentation.

I don’t mind what people wear, I just don’t subscribe to their belief system (the Pope’s hat is rather splendid, but not splendid enough to convert me to Catholicism).

If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
Chequeredred · 11/08/2023 08:32

I think it is a ridiculous question.

Facts - women have fought for same sex spaces for safe guarding reasons and fair play.

Safety
Biological men are physically different from women. This is because biological men can rape and biological women can’t. This is because the average biological man can overpower 90% of biological women. And the average biological woman is physically weaker than 90% of biological men.

Dignity and religion
Women have single sex spaces for dignity, comfort and religious beliefs.
Not all biological women menstruate but only biological women menstruate. Not all religious women are required to be single sex spaces (such as toilets and changing rooms) but some women are.

Sport
On average biological males have huge physical advantage in sport over biological females. This means that the fastest, strongest in any category at any time will be a biological male. Records showing winning timings in athletics, cycling, swimming? Football, etc. are there to see.

So, my question to OP is;
If you believe in Trans/gender ideology what should women actually do?

Should religious women just not go to public toilets. -This is happening
Should women take in additional risk in changing rooms. - This is happening
Should women in prison take on additional risk of take and assault- This has been happening
Should women just accept that middling biological males take the place of exceptional biological women on sports teams? Lose scholarships and life opportunities? -This is happening

What should women actually do?

CatusFlatus · 11/08/2023 08:20

This is an excellent thread full of simple, rational and measured responses. I'm not sure it's played out in the way the OP wanted. I hope it's given some readers new insights into the subject.

HoliHormonalTigerLillyTheSecond · 11/08/2023 08:11

TooManyAnimals94 · 10/08/2023 20:55

For me, being GC is not about telling other people what to do, quite the opposite in fact. Those people you mentioned can do whatever they like except expect me to buy into a fiction.

It's like asking what Catholics or Hindus should "do". Whatever they feel they need to to affirm their faith, but don't expect me to play a part in it beyond respecting their beliefs.

This.

FlippinFumin · 11/08/2023 07:59

DialSquare · 11/08/2023 07:52

The Blacklist? I thought the same.

It was indeed.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 07:56

CBA to read the thread (answer is everyone uses the spaces, services and sport categories for their sex, or they don’t want to do that they campaign for additional third spaces and categories).

just posting to add some illustrations really:

This is Laverne Cox with Chase Strangio (a transman, so biologically female).

And Elliot Page next to Jennifer Garner, so both are biologically female.

As far as I can tell from an internet search, Page is three inches shorter than Strangio.

Should Elliot Page compete in the male category?* if OP thinks yes, then OP must’ve been huffing glue.

*Elliot Page cannot compete in the female category because Elliot Page takes a banned PED (Performance Enhancing Drug) thus Elliot Page needs a transman category because playing against Laverne in the men’s would be ludicrous (and not safe).

If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
DialSquare · 11/08/2023 07:52

FlippinFumin · 11/08/2023 07:51

For all the hooha around Laverne Cox 'passing', whatever that means. I watched them in a programme the other night. Apart from being shit at acting, walked like a man, talked like a man, massive hands and feet. And that was probably with the kindest of production angles and lighting. And Elliot Page is still a woman. Could not pass as a man in a month of Sundays.
I don't want them to do anything but stay in their lane. Don't expect me to go along with a lie. Not going to.

The Blacklist? I thought the same.

FlippinFumin · 11/08/2023 07:51

For all the hooha around Laverne Cox 'passing', whatever that means. I watched them in a programme the other night. Apart from being shit at acting, walked like a man, talked like a man, massive hands and feet. And that was probably with the kindest of production angles and lighting. And Elliot Page is still a woman. Could not pass as a man in a month of Sundays.
I don't want them to do anything but stay in their lane. Don't expect me to go along with a lie. Not going to.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/08/2023 07:49

Colour me utterly shocked the OP hasn’t been back. Are the screen shots on twitter yet?

ArabeIIaScott · 11/08/2023 07:42

ASGIRC · 10/08/2023 23:55

And what about the other way around?

If you dont pass as a man, use the ladies toilets
if you pass as a man, use the ladies toilets

Just... use the ladies toilets?

Or is it not about being GC, but actually about people who look like men?

The sexes are different.

One sex is larger, stronger, and commits both the vast majority of violent crime and virtually all sex crime.

I can supply the stats if you need, these are very well established facts.

DSDaisy · 11/08/2023 07:34

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

CardiganBardigan · 11/08/2023 07:15

At the most fundamental level, what I wish they would do is understand that it's impossible to change sex. And although they are free to dress and look however they choose, doing so, does not change their sex.

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