If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

@vibecheck

Maate! We don’t have ‘feminine biology’!

We have female biology.

It’s very sexist if you to associate female with feminine - @Luizaa, another poster on this thread is a feminine male, your friend is a masculine female.

Sex (male and female) and Gender (masculinity and femininity) are not the same thing.

As long as we keep insisting that sex and gender are separate, the old patriarchal bollox about women being the feminine humans (and thus incapable of anything masculine-coded) can’t take hold.

You and your mate are regressing back to the old days, not us.

They should dress, speak, act and enjoy anything they choose in whatever way they choose that doesn't cross the boundaries of another person's wellbeing.

They should acknowledge that their beliefs about the nature of gender as a phenomenon independent of sex is a philosophical belief, akin to a religion, which they have every right to believe and have that belief respected as far as it doesn't impose requirements on non-believers, but they have no right to expect others to believe.

They should respect that resources and opportunities for women are for people of the female sex regardless of gender beliefs, unless it is a resource or opportunity that was explicitly created for people with a feminine gender identity (not something that was created for female people and more recently co-opted).

I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological.

I'm sorry, this seems a very odd position to take.

Women are vulnerable when it comes to males. Statistically speaking. Or do you not see sexual violence, rape and dv as issues that affect women?

And of course women are 'biological', how on earth else can you 'define' a biological category?!

I think your views are dangerous.

And the post you responded to as about sport.

Do you or don’t you believe female people (not on testosterone) should have sports categories to recognise their achievements?

The post was about sports that you replied to. Hence the question.

(and I know you all think my views are stupid and not feminist, but ah well - we’ll never agree on this I suppose)

I guess we won't. One of these views is more founded in reality and consideration for the rights of women and girls than the other though.

Do you have any examples of "cruelty and nastiness" on this thread?

Your friend is female. Testosterone has not given your friend the punch power of even a weak man, nor the grip strength. Because those are biomechanical aspects of their body that cannot match a male. Oh, and that they are far more likely to have their skull severely damaged and brain damage if a male attacks their head.

Saying your friend is a ‘man’ doesn’t change that they are vulnerable to rape as I assume they probably still have a vagina.

Your adherence to ideological thinking is dangerous. Fucking dangerous!

I don't understand the logic of this at all. Having a separate category for women isn't "othering" women at all. There is a need for separate categories for women in sports, toilets, healthcare etc. Women are biologically and physically different than men. Recognising that difference and ensuring that women are protected from the negative consequences of that isn't "othering" women. Its ensuring safety, dignity and fairness.

Do you understand that men commit 99% of all sex crimes? And 88% of the victims are women?

Do you understand that two women a week are killed by men, and never the other way around?

Do you understand a man's punch is 160% more powerful than a woman's?

It's the basic risk assessment.

When women and girls are naked and vulnerable, the most effective risk reduction you can have, is sex segregation.

do you understand that if women and men compete in sport simultaneously, women will never win?

I’m going to stop posting now, I don’t know why I bothered, I’m off work and got sucked in I suppose. I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological. It’s so not helping anyone. The cruelty and nastiness on this thread I’ve come to expect, but the stupidity I find mind-boggling.

(and I know you all think my views are stupid and not feminist, but ah well - we’ll never agree on this I suppose)

What about all the transmen who do still have the potential to become pregnant? Do you give a crap about them or are you basing everything off your mate?

My stepdaughter says she’s a man. She’s a 5’1” anorexic 17 year old female who weighs under 6 stone (BMI of around 15.5)

She hasn’t yet transitioned medically or surgically and wears goth style feminine clothes (eg black net tutu skirts) but has registered at 6th form college as male and has changed her name to a male name via deedpoll.

Does my stepdaughter belong in a male youth’s prison?

Does Elliot Page belong in a male prison?

Should your mate be on a block with Isla Bryson, the rapist?

Should any vagina person be locked in a cell with any penis person?

Thankfully most transmen are less cavalier about their safety and transmen are routinely housed in the female estate and very rarely request otherwise.

You can’t be much of a mate if you would advocate for your friend to be locked in a prison cell with a penis haver without even asking your mate first.

To quote Sadiq Khan, ‘Maate.’

@Datun my friend is a man

Yes, that's what you believe. You say your friend is female, so it's not what many other people believe, as an adult human female is simply known as a woman. There's no value judgement attached, it's just biological reality.

Yes, this is important.
The debate is by no means a 50/50 split, in that it affects biological women far more than it ever affects biological men.
I am guessing here, but I would say that 99% of men either don't notice or don't care who shares a bathroom /changing room with them, because it is not hard wired into them to be aware of such things, and no threat is posed to them.
It IS hard wired into females to be aware or who is around them when they are in a vulnerable situation, and it is hard wired even more in females who have been through some kind of trauma at the hands of a male person.
Women are always going to be more vulnerable to males , that's just the way it is and that will never change irrespective of how that male identifies/is dressed/how long his hair is/how good his makeup is/how high his voice is/how big his breast implants are etc.

And there are MANY many more trans women than there are trans men for some reason (not). Actually does anyone know the statistical split on that? And so it affects women and girls disproportionally.

I know this is an obvious point for most sane women, but men are bigger, stronger, faster, more aggressive, and can rape you with a penis and impregnate females. It's not rocket science to say that the reverse is not true and that females can and do not generally pose a threat to males in general.

What do "we" want trans people to do?
Use spaces and facilities appropriate to their biological sex.

I don't care what they look like. A beard doesn't make someone a man, and a dress doesn't make someone a woman.

And it's not up to "us" to solve the problem of some males feeling threatened or vulnerable in the males toilet.
After all, when TW use the women's toilet they are doing EXACTLY the same to the women in there aren't they?

But they just don't care about THAT.........

@vibecheck Segregation is an interesting word. Without getting into the connotations of racial segregation & consequent implicit linking of such sporting accommodations with a presumption of inferiority…

Think, for a second, about that open category everyone’s sharing. Imagine watching the race, & perusing the results table. What do you see? Women’s biology will “segregate” them, on the field & in the numbers! Visibly. Unavoidably.

Which do you think actively embraces difference & celebrates women’s unique, incredible, physiology more? Watching them finish, irrevocably (bar some lucky exceptions) behind the male bodies, & seeing them populate the unseen lower half of a long results table? Or a focus exclusively on women & their potential, the best the female body can do, in their own races?

Biology separates.

Humans “segregate”.

@BCCoach @Helleofabore - the original poster wasn’t just talking about sports. They were talking about society in general. Yes, I don’t want society to section off “biological women” whilst everyone else gets to be everyone else, not defined by biology. That’s othering. That’s what women have been trying to escape for hundreds of years and now we’re back to women othering themselves. It’s not long before we go back to being told we can’t do XYZ because of our poor feminine biology

Alongside all the transwomen, I mean.

100 agree.

vibecheck

just to be clear. Are you perfectly happy with all the transmen athletes competing in the open category?

I couldn't care less what words you need to use to uphold an ideology that would send a biological woman into a space full to the rafters with male criminals, where she couldn't escape.

As I said, it doesn't get more misogynistic.

What's your objection to the female/open classification? This has been adopted by UCI, FINA, WA, WR, CTT and others and has been widely applauded. It means that women can compete against other women on a level playing field. It also codifies that women can, if they wish, compete against men in the open class - this has been going on forever unofficially in my sport (cycling) when a women's race hasn't been able to run due to lack of entries but it's nice that it's now officially sanctioned.

Transwomen should not be eligible for women’s awards or jobs. Nor should they be encouraged or assisted in breastfeeding babies. Further, they should be excluded from any female support groups or therapy sessions, especially for women who have been raped.

They should not attempt to infiltrate join maternity groups or pretending they gave birth when some poor woman did the work.

in addition the person who had a woman removed from a group for women who had experienced miscarriage is an example of why transwomen should be excluded from these groups. They have not experienced these ordeals.

@Datun my friend is a man.

My ideal world is one where people understand reality, where mental distress is treated with psychological support, where it's understood that men in particular are liable to a range of paraphilias which can include cross-dressing, where safeguarding principles are widely understood and adhered to, and where women's rights and single-sex spaces are sacrosanct.

Beyond that I couldn't give a fuck what anyone does with their life.

@Luizaa sorry, have you never heard of a total hysterectomy? The cervix is fully removed. It’s also the same reason my mother is also not at risk from cervical cancer. I was responding to another poster asking about his risk from cervical cancer when giving that information.