If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

“I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.”

Have you considered the needs of the many women and girls who have been sexually assigned and sexually abused by males and what they need in ‘women only’ spaces? By including anyone who considers themselves a ‘woman’ you have just reduced those traumatised women and girl’s capacity to access those spaces.

It really is about male bodily cues. When you have opened it up to anyone who considers themselves male you allow in anyone who presents as Alex Drummond does through to Laverne Cox. And all people with male genes have male bodily cues. Hands, feet, gait, skeletal proportions are all discernible and not always disguised with clothing. And voice too.

Have you considered the impact on them of accessing those ‘women only spaces’? It is not just when they are vulnerable, it is all aspects in life when they have expected a space to be only with female people.

Exactly this. I think the religion bit is an excellent analogy.

I work with mainly Irish Catholics. Should I have to be surrounded by holy water fonts and crucifixes in the office when I'm an atheist? Worse, should I have to bless myself with said holy water? Obviously the answer is no but my colleagues are free to do all of the above at home or in a chapel.

Should I be allowed to wear a t-shirt to work that says "Fuck the Catholic church" because I'm an atheist who has personal experience of abuse in said church? Of course not. That wouldn't be fair to my practicing Catholic colleagues.

Live and let live OP. But biological/natal males can do so outside of women's spaces. In either men's spaces or unisex facilities.

Most men manage not to do any of these things so we don't give up on trying to improve society. But spaces for women are still important. 13000 people in men's prisons for sexual offences, 125 in women's prisons for sexual offences. We have to deal with REALITY.

oh yes, my statistics were wrong.

5000 women in prison, in total, I believe. As opposed to 80,000 men.

This is absolutely not the answer in sport, as it will completely exclude trans people from sport at every level. Reserving the women's category for females, and changing the men's category into an open category is what every major governing body is going with - it protects female sport and maintains trans people's access to sport on an even playing field.

I am about 155 cms tall, my brother is about 193cms . He is also very muscular, I am not. I never would be, even if I trained for years.Tell me how I could fight him ,or another male of his size off? I can't. Intellectually, I am better off than him, he has not a single educational qualificationto his name , neither could he understand why I so much as wanted to attend university. The contents of books had no interest to him.
I don't know any feminist of my generation who failed to understand that men and women are not the same in terms of size, muscle , strength and physical characteristics. We did, however, believe that we shouldn't be held back because of the lack of male characteristics.

I have to admit I thought we got past blunt 'equality' and had understood 'equity' quite some time back.

I don’t want society to section off “biological women” whilst everyone else gets to be everyone else, not defined by biology

Humans are dichotomously sexed mammals. We're biological entities.

To me, this reads like you acknowledge that there are certain situations where women have to have a female only space, but where it isnt a priority, you can accept men who really want to be there.

It's 'be kind', but with conditions.

to me, the problem is twofold.

It's almost impossible to implement any conditions that don't either discriminate against some other male people, or let in people who are completely undesirable, because you can't tell.

But also, it's not taking into account the women involved. Some women will quite literally self exclude if there are males present.

And what you have to remember here, is it's not really about the space, at all. It's about the presence of the women in that space. If the women left, the space would become irrelevant. It's just a room with four walls.

And the space where the women went off to would now become the focus.

The presence of the women is crucial.

The women are being used as a resource.

It's not about kindness, it's about deciding that women, as a sex, can and should be used in the service of men.

Under certain conditions, of course...

I believe I can do anything a man can do just as well using my drive and brain.
I don't believe I can do anything a man can do with my body.
I believe I am physically vulnerable as a weak woman. I believe even a weak man can easily hurt or overpower me.

It's not othering, any more than having separate categories for U12s and U14s is othering, or weight categories in sports like weightlifting and boxing. Crucially, most women aren't forced to compete in the female category. They are free to compete in the open category if they choose to do so (same applies in most sports for age and weigh cats - a U12 can "race up" in U14s if they want to). The only females who have to compete in the open category are transmen who are using androgenic steroids with a TUE.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

I'm not vulnerable as a human being. I'm vulnerable to male violence because I am not as strong as a man. I have an 80 year old disinhibited (and lovely) male patient who can punch his way past me if distressed. It is not my 'womanhood' that is vulnerable. I am built like a brick outhouse myself, am rarely ill (though unfortunately I am today), and come from a long line of great big tough women. I am still not as strong as a man considerably smaller than me. My patient is vulnerable to emotional, financial and sexual abuse and neglect, including from women, but I am vulnerable to physical and sexual violence from men purely because I am female.

Most men manage not to do any of these things so we don't give up on trying to improve society. But spaces for women are still important. 13000 people in men's prisons for sexual offences, 125 in women's prisons for sexual offences. We have to deal with REALITY.

I look around at the girls and young women I know who are identifying as male and I really don't think this is some innate sexual minority that has never been allowed to flower before. This is another form of self harm for women in a sexist society.

“I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological. It’s so not helping anyone.”

I have seen this argument quite a lot recently. I think it comes from
a misrepresentation of what 2nd wave feminists actually were saying or intending. I have seen people who call themselves feminist and also blatant trolling (and deleted) male rights activists use it though.

It is not a feminist principle that the female body is exactly the same strength wise as a male body. It never was the intention of ‘equality’. Second wave feminists believed that women should have equal opportunities! Not be expected to lift just as heavy loads with their bodies FFS!

This rhetoric that feminists are regressive for understanding the needs of female bodies is bonkers and based on misrepresentation and misinformation. By now there is so much evidence on the physical differences between male and female bodies, with and without testosterone, that it takes only a person unable or unwilling to do the reading to make non-sense claims about feminism now being focused on ‘female weakness and vulnerability’.

And the same goes for denying the impact of trauma on women and children. What feminist wishes to put female people and children into situations where males can cause them irreparable harm?

There really is a dangerous element to a particular type of feminist who believes that males and females are equal in strength. That women (even on testosterone) are just as capable of fighting of male attackers as all other male people. Part of that is just that women don’t train as hard.

I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.

This is not a belief the vast majority of "GC feminists" have. Not going to "flame" you, but that literally means opening up women's spaces to all men who take a fancy to using them. That to me casts some doubt on your claim to be a GC feminist in the way the OP is using the term.

There are certainly GC women who think physically transitioned males can use women's spaces, but none that I've ever seen (and I've been a GC feminist since the term was first used) who think any male who "identifies" as a woman should be able to.

@TriedTurningItOff :
I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.
I'm a Lesbian, and have had to deal with transgender men (straight and gay) in my Lesbian social group on dating apps.

Do you think this is just or fair when I am same-sex attracted?

I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological.

We're very strong when we get together to protect ourselves and each other. But we've a tendency to undermine ourselves by prioritising vulnerable men - though even vulnerable men can pose a danger to women.

Don't sacrifice yourself (and other women) to a fantasy of female invulnerability.

I’m going to stop posting now

OK then. Look after yourself.

@vibecheck

I really hope you're still reading this.

I cannot understand how there is a generation of women (I'm assuming you're young-ish), who have been lead to genuinely believe that men and women are totally equal biologically.

They're not. Women are more vulnerable.

It's not a judgement. It's not a value assessment.

it's just a fact.

Do you never consider why women are the ones who are raped? Or about domestic violence statistics? Refuges for women?

Last time I looked there were about 5000 men in prison just for sex offences. And about 130 women.

In fact, 96% of the entire prison population is male.

we don't segregate unless it's necessary. In shops, or offices say!

Just when women are quite literally practically naked or in a very vulnerable situation. And of course, sport.

If men didn't commit all the sex and violent crimes, and if women weren't disproportionately the victims of sex crimes, it would be a different story.

People have speculated before about the effects of movies showing kickass women, fighting off half a dozen beefy blokes.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that people are genuinely starting to believe this.

I think as women we can start kicking back at government policies in the language we use and what we say. For example the other day as part of a medical questionnaire the practitioner asked me something along the lines of "were you assigned female at birth" or "do you identify as your birth gender", sorry I really can't remember the exact question but it was to do with gender/sex and I just said "I'm a woman". She didn't push me on that so clearly took whatever she wanted from it (which must mean something?). It might be petty but I felt good about it

I would not permit this in spaces for children or vulnerable women e.g sexual abuse survivors, medical patients etc.

Absolutely no desire to 'flame' anyone, but I have a question - have you any idea how many women are survivors of sexual abuse? Stats suggest it's at very least one in five.

And all women are of course more vulnerable to male violence than men are vulnerable to violence from other males, because of the size/strength differential, as well as the statistical likelihood of males to be violent and/or commit sexual assaults.

I'm curious which spaces for women don't include 'vulnerable women'.

The answer is third spaces, you know those 'gender neutral' spaces that some wish to impose on us. Those of us ,XXs, who still want the 'ladies' go there, if you don't mind taking your chance in 'gender neutral ' spaces ,then use those. But ,don't take away our spaces , for those who think biology matters.

I imagine that the weight of cognitive dissonance of the opinion that people can change their sex category just by saying so, when it blatantly isn't true in any meaningful sense, and not actually being able to defend why you don't believe women should have the right to single sex spaces apart from throwing out some trite comment about "othering biological women" must be difficult.

Do trans women want to use women's toilets because they think it's a cute fluffy place where we all swap lipsticks and rearrange our cardigans or something?

I guess there will be some different motivations.

Some say they are afraid of other men and therefore should be allowed to use women's spaces. (Women of course are not afforded the luxury of a male-free space if this happens; we are supposed to just suck it up).

Some want 'validation' of their 'woman' identity.

Some want to use them for other reasons - I will count the transwoman I saw masturbating in the ladies' in this category.

(Not that I blame them btw, this subject is an absolute minefield if you are a respectful, nice man I imagine: support women and you are a transphobe, support TRAs and you're a sexist - lose lose situation)

To me, it's a fair enough question from the OP, and one I think about as a GC feminist. I'm interested to read the responses on this thread.

I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces. However, I would not permit this in spaces for children or vulnerable women e.g sexual abuse survivors, medical patients etc. I realise there are gaps in this policy, and they'd need to plugged with discernment and kindness.

I don't think it's fair for trans women to be allowed to compete against women in sport. I realise that's hard on athletic trans women, but I can't see an alternative.

It's hard to find fair, kind answers - that apply in all situations - at either end of the spectrum of debate. For me, we have to feel our way forward, and I don't have anything more comprehensive than the thoughts above.

Please flame me, if you're so inclined. I'm offering this as a contribution to discussion. I'm very open to hearing other views, or the flaws in my thoughts. I'm not interested in being shouted down, intimidated or mocked. So please don't bother.

Do trans women want to use women's toilets because they think it's a cute fluffy place where we all swap lipsticks and rearrange our cardigans or something?

Personally I use women's toilets because I don't want to potentially be raped by man.

If trans women share that fear, then why aren't they focusing their energy on challenging men?

What I resent is that the trans woman vs woman argument stems from male violence, and yet men are not involved in the debate at all

And of course only one sex is vulnerable to pregnancy and all that entails. While only one sex (the other one) is able to impregnate.