Page 16 | If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

AmaListening · 2023-08-10T19:47:26+00:00

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do. Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man). Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports. How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery? I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

RebelliousCow · 11/08/2023 13:55

puffyisgood · 11/08/2023 11:49

"Vulnerable and biological"? Jesus **ing christ. Women, I mean actual women, can do pretty much anything that men can do - we've seen plenty of women become the absolute best in the world, regardless of sex, in their field. Women heads of state, women, Nobel laureates, women Fields medal winners, women FTSE 100 CEOs... and we'll see more of all of the above... women can be as good as or better than men in pretty much every field of human endeavour, that's a given... but when it comes to the purely physical stuff, can a woman ever be as physically strong, or as fast, as the strongest or fastest men in the world... no, that can never happen, as a species we're just not built like that, this has always been known by every say aged 10 plus year old human on the planet and always will be.

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Also men tend to be driven in more overtly sexualised ways. There is plenty of evidence of this ( plus there is no female equivalent of the voyeur, the flasher, the heavy breather, the transvestite...); and you only have to look at gay male culture to see what male sexual behaviour looks like when free of the contraints of female preference. Pornography is also predominantly a male pastime, as is the buying of sex.

RebelliousCow · 11/08/2023 13:47

vibecheck · 11/08/2023 11:07

I’m going to stop posting now, I don’t know why I bothered, I’m off work and got sucked in I suppose. I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological. It’s so not helping anyone. The cruelty and nastiness on this thread I’ve come to expect, but the stupidity I find mind-boggling.

(and I know you all think my views are stupid and not feminist, but ah well - we’ll never agree on this I suppose)

But a woman is literally an adult human female. Biology is what defines the sexes.

That is not to say everyone is circumscribed by their sex in all matters, but that sex can and does have consequneces on a material, emotional and social level - which necessitate the provision of single sex categories for women - in order they maintain the dignity and privacy of their sex; and also to ensure that female athleticism and excellence receives if fair reward in sporting competition.

Feminist believe that women have value and dignity - not that they are exactly the same as men.

turbonerd · 11/08/2023 13:45

single sex facilities are not optional, but vital

Froodwithatowel · 11/08/2023 13:45

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 11/08/2023 13:40

I genuinely believe that third spaces are not the answer, that a heck of a lot of money would be spent on them, and that they would lie mainly empty.

10 years ago I might have agreed but I don't think that's true any more. By now we have created a generation of young people many of whom will need different kinds of third spaces for years if not forever. We don't yet know how many before the wave passes.

I agree. And it's the obvious answer. If you are not comfortable using the space for your sex then that feeling and choice can be respected and an alternative is available.

This will separate those who genuinely want an alternative option for their needs, and those who merely wish to use non consenting women in a vulnerable state, and exclude those who will not comply. And those who cannot tolerate seeing women's needs met even after their own needs have been provided for. Those poor behaviours need stamping on, not indulging.

What is then needed is a massive 'education' of male people, and sadly a lot of female people too, that women are human, that some women have inclusion and diversity needs just as important as male people with TQ identities, and that a working society requires accepting a responsibility to respect other people's boundaries and inclusion/access needs as well as expecting accessible facilities yourself.

turbonerd · 11/08/2023 13:44

ASGIRC · 10/08/2023 23:36

Yes, I really can see the feminine side of Brian Michael Smith, with his small hands and feet!
https://pridesource.com/article/ann-arbor-native-brian-michael-smith-incredibly-honored-to-be-first-trans-man-on-peoples-sexiest-men-alive-list/
It is the first thing that strikes me about him when I look at his pictures. Its how feminine he looks.

I don’t care if she looks like Attila The Hun.

Men in the men’s facilities.

Women in the women’s facilities.

Single sex facilities are not options for those of us who have ptsd after rape and/or abuse.

How about being kind?

Campaign for a Third, mixed sex facility.

Good luck.

RebelliousCow · 11/08/2023 13:43

vibecheck · 11/08/2023 10:52

God, I just don’t want women to be segregated in this way. I don’t want to be constantly defined by my biology and othered by it, whilst everyone else gets to be “all welcome”.

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When youb talk about being 'othered' are you referringv to a recognition that there are actually some differences between the two sexes - which at general population level, mean it is best/safest/optimum for women to have single sex spaces, services and categories in certain types of circumstance?

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 13:42

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 11/08/2023 13:40

I genuinely believe that third spaces are not the answer, that a heck of a lot of money would be spent on them, and that they would lie mainly empty.

10 years ago I might have agreed but I don't think that's true any more. By now we have created a generation of young people many of whom will need different kinds of third spaces for years if not forever. We don't yet know how many before the wave passes.

The Gender Quacks have a lot to answer for.

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 11/08/2023 13:40

I genuinely believe that third spaces are not the answer, that a heck of a lot of money would be spent on them, and that they would lie mainly empty.

10 years ago I might have agreed but I don't think that's true any more. By now we have created a generation of young people many of whom will need different kinds of third spaces for years if not forever. We don't yet know how many before the wave passes.

ThomasinaLivesHere · 11/08/2023 13:36

BCCoach · 11/08/2023 13:04

@loislovesstewie which is why we have female and open categories. Gender-neutral events aren't going to happen because they are a lot of additional organisation for no-one to show up. Organising 10 races at a typical meet in my sport is enough of a headache without adding a bunch more that will not actually attract any entries.

Gender neutral events are also just a way for males to win more prizes as demonstrated by having non-binary categories in marathons it’s only ever males who unsurprisingly win.

Froodwithatowel · 11/08/2023 13:30

GailBlancheViola · 11/08/2023 13:16

Well said frood we never, ever get an answer to this:

but what do you plan to do with all the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces and who you just excluded entirely from access to services, resources and equality of public life in order to generously give male people the freedom to choose their sex and use whatever space they prefer?

I've come to the conclusion that they just don't care about those women, they have contempt for them that is how deep the misogyny goes.

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But always enough self awareness of how very wrong this is that there isn't the guts to say, flat out, 'I think women of these faiths, these cultures, these traumas, these disabilities, are worthless and should have their rights removed in order to benefit men and people like me'.

MrsKeats · 11/08/2023 13:28

Stop invading women's spaces.
Stop denying biology.
For a start.

HootyMcBooby76 · 11/08/2023 13:28

Gender neutral spaces don't work for those TW who are adamant that they are women and will only use women's spaces for the validation they crave.
This has been shown time and again.

And how would we "police" it?
In the past we relied on the good morals of most men to stay out of the women's spaces, but now?

I genuinely believe that third spaces are not the answer, that a heck of a lot of money would be spent on them, and that they would lie mainly empty.

Unless every toilet block is made gender neutral everywhere with fully independent floor to ceiling walls, there will still be men using women's spaces.
It would be the only way to remove the thrill of using the female facilities, if there WERE no truly female facilities.
But then that excludes women who can ONLY use fully female facilities, so we are back to square one.

GailBlancheViola · 11/08/2023 13:16

Froodwithatowel · 11/08/2023 12:15

I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.

So I'll ask yet again - since it's been asked several times on this thread alone and no one ever answers.

This is lovely - but what do you plan to do with all the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces and who you just excluded entirely from access to services, resources and equality of public life in order to generously give male people the freedom to choose their sex and use whatever space they prefer?

Honestly. Please. Someone.

Is this a case of simple racism/classism? That these women aren't like you and yours and so you don't see them as important enough to be worth equality? Is this the new Margot Leadbetter just washing inconvenient grotty people out of her naice middle class white British society?

Because it's repeatedly explained that these women exist, it isn't that you don't know.

Someone own it.

Why do you see these women as worthless and wish to exclude them from society?

And why are you pretending to believe that these men are women when you're making it very clear that you believe male people's entitlements come before female people's basic equality and human rights? It's fantastically sexist in a very binary way, you know exactly which sex you think should have choice at the expense of the other sex's equality and humanity.

And why does no one ever have the guts to actually own and defend this awful belief system? Is it because you know there's something very, very wrong with it?

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Well said frood we never, ever get an answer to this:

but what do you plan to do with all the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces and who you just excluded entirely from access to services, resources and equality of public life in order to generously give male people the freedom to choose their sex and use whatever space they prefer?

I've come to the conclusion that they just don't care about those women, they have contempt for them that is how deep the misogyny goes.

loislovesstewie · 11/08/2023 13:13

In my first post I referred to gender neutral anything, I wasn't specifying sports . So ; toilets, changing rooms etc. If I can have the 'ladies', men have 'men's' and those who Id as other have a gender neutral space along with those who don't mind being in there. That is OK by me. Women's sports are only for women, clearly.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2023 13:11

BCCoach · 11/08/2023 13:04

@loislovesstewie which is why we have female and open categories. Gender-neutral events aren't going to happen because they are a lot of additional organisation for no-one to show up. Organising 10 races at a typical meet in my sport is enough of a headache without adding a bunch more that will not actually attract any entries.

yep

Helleofabore · 11/08/2023 13:09

Froodwithatowel · 11/08/2023 12:15

I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.

So I'll ask yet again - since it's been asked several times on this thread alone and no one ever answers.

This is lovely - but what do you plan to do with all the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces and who you just excluded entirely from access to services, resources and equality of public life in order to generously give male people the freedom to choose their sex and use whatever space they prefer?

Honestly. Please. Someone.

Is this a case of simple racism/classism? That these women aren't like you and yours and so you don't see them as important enough to be worth equality? Is this the new Margot Leadbetter just washing inconvenient grotty people out of her naice middle class white British society?

Because it's repeatedly explained that these women exist, it isn't that you don't know.

Someone own it.

Why do you see these women as worthless and wish to exclude them from society?

And why are you pretending to believe that these men are women when you're making it very clear that you believe male people's entitlements come before female people's basic equality and human rights? It's fantastically sexist in a very binary way, you know exactly which sex you think should have choice at the expense of the other sex's equality and humanity.

And why does no one ever have the guts to actually own and defend this awful belief system? Is it because you know there's something very, very wrong with it?

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I expect that you will not get your very on point questions answered.

puffyisgood · 11/08/2023 13:05

HootyMcBooby76 · 11/08/2023 12:58

"And why are you pretending to believe that these men are women when you're making it very clear that you believe male people's entitlements come before female people's basic equality and human rights? It's fantastically sexist in a very binary way, you know exactly which sex you think should have choice at the expense of the other sex's equality and humanity."

YES.
And there is NEVER an answer to this, never.
You just get "be kind", "reframe your trauma", "trans women are women", or some other feeble epithet that means nothing.

Women need to budge over, always.
Women are the support creatures, always.
Women need to make the concessions, always.
Women need to solve the problem, always.

A rape victim is told that her experience and fears do not matter, the needs of the special man is far more important.
An orthodox jewish woman and a muslim woman are told that their beliefs and religion are worthless, but the beliefs and "religion" of the special man is far more important.

pff, obviously. a man's desire to not share spaces with men who don't share his gender identity has to trump a woman's desire to not share spaces with 'women' who don't share her biology, that has to be right.

BCCoach · 11/08/2023 13:04

@loislovesstewie which is why we have female and open categories. Gender-neutral events aren't going to happen because they are a lot of additional organisation for no-one to show up. Organising 10 races at a typical meet in my sport is enough of a headache without adding a bunch more that will not actually attract any entries.

Datun · 11/08/2023 13:02

ApocalipstickNow · 11/08/2023 12:37

The majority of women are not as physically strong as men. This is biology.

society prizes physical strength because it is something men have and many societies see men and their qualities as being better than women. This is sexism.

To ignore that and put women in situations where they are unsafe (eg locked in a cell with a man) or disadvantaged (eg in a sporting contest) because pretending that noticing differences in biology is sexist and calling it feminism is bullshit.

Of course it is. And there might be the odd person who genuinely believes that women are as strong as men, but most of the time it's just TRA bullshit.

HootyMcBooby76 · 11/08/2023 12:58

"And why are you pretending to believe that these men are women when you're making it very clear that you believe male people's entitlements come before female people's basic equality and human rights? It's fantastically sexist in a very binary way, you know exactly which sex you think should have choice at the expense of the other sex's equality and humanity."

YES.
And there is NEVER an answer to this, never.
You just get "be kind", "reframe your trauma", "trans women are women", or some other feeble epithet that means nothing.

Women need to budge over, always.
Women are the support creatures, always.
Women need to make the concessions, always.
Women need to solve the problem, always.

A rape victim is told that her experience and fears do not matter, the needs of the special man is far more important.
An orthodox jewish woman and a muslim woman are told that their beliefs and religion are worthless, but the beliefs and "religion" of the special man is far more important.

loislovesstewie · 11/08/2023 12:52

Why should be worried if there aren't enough competitors in gender neutral sports events?
I'm more concerned that women can continue with their lives without men interfering.

Sugarfree23 · 11/08/2023 12:51

DeanElderberry · 11/08/2023 12:39

If I was world uber-boss, I'd ban the carrying out of elective body modification procedures, from lip fillers and tattoos through nose jobs, fake breasts, and mastectomy to genital reconstruction on anyone under the age of 25.

Wait until their brains have developed before damaging their bodies.

I certainly don't think any of that should be available on the NHS.

Mental illness needs to be treated with psychologists not surgeons

DeanElderberry · 11/08/2023 12:39

If I was world uber-boss, I'd ban the carrying out of elective body modification procedures, from lip fillers and tattoos through nose jobs, fake breasts, and mastectomy to genital reconstruction on anyone under the age of 25.

Wait until their brains have developed before damaging their bodies.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 11/08/2023 12:37

And did someone back in the early part of the thread really say that Elliot Page 'passes' as a man?

Surely not

ApocalipstickNow · 11/08/2023 12:37

The majority of women are not as physically strong as men. This is biology.

society prizes physical strength because it is something men have and many societies see men and their qualities as being better than women. This is sexism.

To ignore that and put women in situations where they are unsafe (eg locked in a cell with a man) or disadvantaged (eg in a sporting contest) because pretending that noticing differences in biology is sexist and calling it feminism is bullshit.