If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

@AmaListening

If you look at photos from the 90s, or the 70s (even more so), there were lots of women with short hair. They were still women. In my own mother's netball photos, a huge variety of hairstyles. In her school photo, you can guess quite easily the two girls who became gender non conforming lesbians (who are now both mothers, separately, and grandmothers - if they had been called trans men in the 70s, maybe they would now be infertile with advanced osteoporosis - is that definitely the "more enlightened" option. You have to be damn sure it is!).

Point is, whilst we think that we live in "more enlightened" times, we are actually more gendered than we used to be - most teenagers nowadays have a very similar look on the hair front. If you identify as a girl, you are almost obliged to be Uber feminine. I'd say it is the selfie/social media culture we live in.

And we have compounded that by not saying to kids "no, you're actually a girl, John, but that is a great thing to be. You can still wear dresses and like barbies, that is fine for a boy". I know autistic boys, by the way, who wanted to be a girl because they have spent lots of time with their mummy and want to be a mummy too and understand that only girls can have babies. The best response is surely "well, only mummies can carry babies, but daddies can do so much too - they can feed with bottles, change nappies and, most importantly, they can give amazing cuddles and play games like mummies"

If my 3 yo had looked in a mirror she'd have seen a kid in jeans and a t-shirt, hair however she pleased, playing with whatever she wanted and whoever she wanted. Why on earth would she want to be exactly the same but called 'boy'.

Only children who are sold very rigid gender roles would even vaguely think about this. Maybe don't enforce rigid gender roles!

Yes. I don't "feel" that I am female. I just know what sex I am, and there are lots of things which go with that, because there are stereotypes and socialisation as a girl and then a woman.

“So when someone else born with XX chromosomes and a vagina writes that they've always felt like a boy, that's fascinating to me and I "believe" them because they're telling me their experience.”

How does this work logically?

Someone who has a female body can only truthfully say they feel like how they imagine or interpret how a male person feels. They have no idea at all what that ‘feeling’ of being male is actually like.

To be blunt, it is their own projection of what they WANT being male to be like. There in lies the issue. Yes, it is fascinating. As much as reading about how someone really wishes it was like to be something they can never be.

That is why it is an often misogynistic portrayal of women that males choose to identify as.

And that is why Cox is not correct when Cox says Cox has no male privilege. FFS. That would mean that Cox would actually pass and I am sorry if anyone honestly believes that Cox passes. Because it is as clear now as it ever was that Cox is male.

OP you said "I've never questioned that I'm a woman. I felt I was a girl growing up. " What did you mean by that? What does Elliot Page mean when saying they felt male?

Someone claiming to be a different sex should be able to answer that.

You don't hear much about trans men.
Is it because they can read the room.

There have been too many awful stories about trans men of late.

That being said , I have a revulsion of trans folk who decide that their infant school child is also transgender. Particularly where the child rails against it.

I recommend you add "The Gendered Brain" to your reading list. It's not particularly about trans issues but about the scientific quest for understanding the difference between male and female brains, and measuring all the differences in socialisation that male and female children are exposed to. The research as to how that socialisation was applied in the case of children who later identify as trans hasn't been done. But it's reasonably clear that society in general is so sexist that by far the biggest influence on "gendered" feelings and behaviour come from sexist socialisation rather than genetics. If we could rebuild society so that boys and girls were truly treated equally then it would be possible to identify what the real differences between male and female are, but it's very unlikely we could ever do that.

As I said, trans issues aren't particularly the point of the book but it helped me to understand the concept of "gender" more. I think it's a useful read for both sides of the debate.

OP have you ever asked a trans person why they feel like they are the opposite sex? Ever considered what it means to feel like a woman or a man? I wouldnt say I feel female, I'm not a gender stereotype, but I am female. I dont feel male either. People here ask this question often and it usually goes unanswered. If anyone does venture an answer it's always related to stereotypes.

"Woman" is not a dress, it's not a costume, it's not a choice -it's just reality.

You'd need a world like the one we all lived in until about 15 years ago, where hair length and clothes style and colour were just hair length and clothes choice, not immutable markers of some new but immeasurably important thing called gender.

If dc dress however they want and adults don’t impose anything on that then they wouldn’t be sad

Just a happy five year old boy in a skirt with hair clips, no issue

I identified as a boiled beetle at age 4. Not a girl beetle or a boy beetle, but a boiled beetle!

Children identify as all sorts of things. It's up to their parents to manage their expectations. I could no more have grown up to be a boiled beetle than I could a man.

And do you realise that according to some transfolk that makes you transphobic?

You said what did people want transwomen to do for sports.

So you DON'T agree with natal men who present as female being in women's sport?

and the irony is that (some) trans women's insistence that they have unchallenged access to female sex-specific provisions is 100% male behaviour based on their male entitlement.

I think they should be able to dress and look however they want, and sleep with whoever they want, but they should respect the biological reality of their underlying sex and not claim otherwise, nor use sex-specific provisions.

Another question I have is why gender dysphoria is treated differently to other dysphorias? We don't "affirm" anorexia...

I think the job of a parent or teacher is to pepare children for the practical, everyday reality of life, whilst also encouraging their creativity and imagination.

It is one thing to permit a child the space to imagine; pretend; play act; try out; dress up: explore - but quite another to encourage a child to believe they are something they are not - and which will inevitably cause them a great deal of extended suffering going forward.

@AmaListening "Helpful, thanks. And then? If therapy didn't seem to help?"

I don't know-I'd have to deal with that when it happened. Incidentally- it's not actually uncommon for small children to wish they were the opposite sex. I suspect it was more common when gender stereotypes were enforced more rigorously than they generally are now- if you see your brother doing exciting stuff why wouldn't you wish you were a boy?

In that article I linked to the psychaiatrist author suggested that there is a common progress of - little girl ( 3 or 4) says that she feels like a boy. Parents affirm (no problem, there are no major sex differences at that age), name change, give hair cut, new clothes, and then they and the school become utterly invested in no debate, any questions are transphobia. The child picks up on that and toes the line, unable to ask any further questions. Then puberty arrives. Devastation.

Could happen the other way around, obviously.

You can also respect that this person genuinely feels this way, and holds this belief. But respecting others to the same extent requires placing limits and boundaries as to how far others should be reorganised and deprived of resources and rights in order to enable this belief and feelings to go uninterrupted.

I am absolutely delighted to respect TQ+ people and their beliefs, as I respect those of other faiths that I do not share. I have no respect for anyone of any faith who wishes to exclude and redefine and punish others for not being willing or even able to enact their belief around them at all times.

And the elephant in the room is that unfortunately Isla Bryson and Karen White and Katie Dolotowski and an ever increasing list of others demonstrates that not all of those who sincerely hold this belief and feelings are those of good faith with solely pure intentions. This part has to be faced. This is not one homogenous group that can all be met and understood in one identical way - although it would be convenient for Isla and co if they were. A vulnerable teenaged Autistic female transitioner is not the same as a middle aged male transitioning from a marriage and several children.

I'm not sure if you are in the U.K? But there was a televised dramatisation of the childhood of Mermaid's ( child gender charity) founder, Susie Green's, son.
He was a sensitive toddler and liked to play with his sister's toys. His father had a major isue with this and reportedly removed the toys from the child telling him that therse were " girls toys". the boy eventually concluded that if he liked and wanted such toys so much then he must be a girl.

The thing is that puberty “cures” most cases of gender dysphoria, so blocking the only known cure seems inexplicable to me. And giving cross-sex hormones to bodies ill-equipped to deal with them does not seem like a good alternative solution, especially after two or three “counselling sessions” where whatever the child says is affirmed and not explored.