I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

Hmmm

I think most biological males /trans women who want to try on women's clothes would avoid a situation like this and order online instead it would be traumatic for them to not have anywhere where they are accepted / to 'go'

Keeping men out of women's areas isn't the same as trying to harass them out of mixed sex areas which people can either choose to use or not.

I mean, would we really be applauding a male OP boasting about chasing a foreign woman out of a unisex changing area?

But it's not the 'sensitivities of her dad', it's her infirm mum that needs help.

I'm all against pushing back against dodgy fetishists etc but I'm not so full of myself that I'm going to expect an infirm elderly lady or a clearly sick/recovering woman to struggle on her own and risk a fall just to make some obscure point.

If the bloke is clearly assisting her in walking etc I'm not going to try and make their already difficult situation harder on the assumption that it might all be a cleverly staged trick to smuggle a man into an area that is already mixed sex. Bonkers!

We shouldn't have to be giving all these reasons Ffs.

Why can't we just say no?

I was just reflecting that I hadn't properly realised how much you could view m and s bra changing rooms as a medical service, for want of a better word. I knew they do specialist bras. And I know they do fittings. And I've had help with breastfeeding bras there. It's just that bigger more sensitive health aspect, mostly something older women deal with, though not all, that so easily gets overlooked.

JL's set up isn't as nice where I am. I know there's other shops but not sure what's near me, plus m and s do click and collect

Don't be a dafty!

I still expressed myself badly.

WarriorN.

Oh god no, no need to say sorry. Was just adding to that point.

Until I was in that situation myself, I hadn't realised what a god send m and s is.

I had a man in dress queuing behind me trying on undies on in m&s. He was saying loudly that all us girls always have to queue. I didn't take my bra off to try my bra on knowing there was a man in with us.

I do think if you really genuinely want pass as a woman you don't sing and dance and draw attention to yourself so I was safer, like with all men, he has the potential to do me harm.

I wouldn't go alone in a males loos as rightly I have been conditioned to assume its not safe to be partly dressed around strange men I don't know.

If it was tomorrow I'd have stepped aside and waited for them to try on and leave.

M and s is also the go to for the majority of women who are undergoing mastectomies or lumpectomies.

Absolutely, WarriorN. I'm sorry, I didn't express myself very well there by saying we've all got boobs. I meant we've all got female bodies. And that includes women with who have had surgery on their breasts and another reason for requiring the privacy and dignity of a single sex changing room.

My main experiences of issues with voyerism and real concerns about safety in mixed sex provision has been in swimming pools.

I find it absolutely bizarre that people pretend mixed sex changing villages are traditional. Have they never been in a swimming pool built prior to 2000? For example, an old Victorian building?

Local pool is 1950s and retained its single sex provision. Purely as I think it was too expensive to do otherwise! I also think it still has women only sessions.

As has another Victorian pool that was bought by the community about 25 years ago and runs as a charity.

I haven't yet ventured into the rebooted Victorian Newcastle city baths, I think they went mixed sex for the Turkish baths though

I had only ever been to swimming pools with single sex changing facilities until I moved to somewhere that only has mixed sex.
I have never been so uncomfortable in my life, I will only go with my mum or with my partner, I refuse to go alone. Even then I've only been twice and I've lived where I am almost 4 years now.
People can call it hysterical if they want, but I'm just not comfortable with it, and I'm not going to force myself to be.

"Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities."

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

It's not just a safety issue. It's about privacy and dignity too. If I have to talk to the M&S assistant in the fitting room about the fit of bras I'm trying on, cupsize etc, I don't mind if the other women in the changing room can hear. We've all got boobs

M and s is also the go to for the majority of women who are undergoing mastectomies or lumpectomies.

Sorry, @user65754 I didn't express that very well. I meant an assistant could check who was in the changing rooms and warn women. Most women would not be worried about a male partner in there, as long as they know. Hearing a man's voice without knowing could trigger a few women.
Honestly I have a friend who is so sensible and never mentions what caused it, but she can't go into mixed sex changing rooms and has given up swimming. It's quite common.

*have always existed.

In 2018, a thousand people signed a petition calling for the changing rooms at a Cardiff pool to provide separate male and female rooms, as they had before. Presumably the previous changing rooms were a figment of the users' imagination, because 'mixed sex changing villages have already existed', yes?

The leisure centre denied receiving the petition, which is absolutely on brand for the overall company.

one thousand people sign petition

I find it absolutely bizarre that people pretend mixed sex changing villages are traditional. Have they never been in a swimming pool built prior to 2000? For example, an old Victorian building?

Since all the men seem to be gravitating towards the changing rooms for women the men's must be like the Marie Celeste, maybe we should all go and change in the men's.

@JellySaurus but this isn't about swimming pool changing rooms, it's about shop fitting rooms, which have always been unisex in many places.

I do agree that communal spaces where women are undressed, such as swimming pool changing rooms, should be single sex (or at least a single sex space should be available for those who want one).

The article you've shared doesn't really tell us much though, I think the claim the evidence is "unequivocal" is a bit of a stretch. Why were the sexual assaults that happened outside the changing rooms excluded from the percentages, thus distorting them? It is also not clear how many of the facilities had single sex or unisex changing rooms, which is important since it is a confounding factor. If there are more unisex or "gender neutral" facilities than single sex facilities, it goes without saying that more of these assaults would happen in the unisex/gender neutral facilities. This is why we need more academic study of these topics, so we don't have to rely on the data that has been cherry-picked by journalists to create a story.

The majority of sexual assaults happen in a public place, not a locked changing cubicle.

The vast majority – just under 90 per cent – of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism or harassment reported at leisure centres and public swimming pools took place in unisex facilities. Of these, sexual attacks made up 67 per cent.

Until the 90s, swimming pool changing rooms were strictly single sex. Even when unisex 'changing villages' began to appear, the toilets and showers remained single sex.

Mixed sex changing villages are actually rather recent introduction, and men in adjacent cubicles sticking their mobile phones under and over the partition is an issue there, too.

I find it remarkable that you reflexively posted that you felt for your dad, instead of your mum. It would have been more convincing to argue that we needed additional mixed-sex fitting areas for the convenience of women who needed a male family member's assistance, than to appeal to the hurt feelings of your dad.

Why are you the one to determine what matters.

I always find it staggering when men say that single sex toilets/changing rooms don't matter, as if they can proclaim on behalf of women.

If they matter to OP, to a member of a religious faith, to a victim of assault or violence, or to me, they matter.

If they were to think about it shops that primarily to women should care more about what matters to individual customers, than what random internet people like Peony say.

Nailed it. Perfectly.

Mixed spaces don't have to be dangerous for women. There are plenty of cases where men have planted tiny cams and watched at a distance while getting their jollies at the cost of women's privacy and dignity.

Allowing ANY man into female spaces allows them the opportunity to do this.

So inappropriate and rude. It’s not your place to do that. You’re in a cubicle, why does it matter. I’d be mortified for the other person if I saw this happen, think about their feelings.

So you think disabled women should have to let a stranger see them naked, instead of a trusted carer? Where is the privacy and dignity in that?!?