I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

@CriticalCondition - In a locked cubicle - absolutely. Behind a flimbsy curtain - no. Conversation about bra fit, no probs at all. I'd do that in a pub in mixed company.

So would you be happy to strip to your underwear in the room next door and talk about the size and shape of your breasts and the fit of your bras in his hearing? If not, why not?

Very well (and rationally) explained @Catiette Im prepared to have my mind changed. Thank you.

I think some reactions (to the idea of a locked cubicle in this instance) are over the top.

Im alone in my house with a male electrician today. I don’t for a minute think he’s going to install a secret porn camera or start wanking over my knicker drawer.

Equally I would not feel uncomfortable or threatened by a man outside my locked changing room.

All of this wrangling over exceptions that prove the rule that men should be able to access lingerie changing rooms seems to be missing what, to me, is the central point.

5 or so years ago, I imagine many women wouldn’t have had the slightest concern about the husband helping his disabled wife, would have felt at least somewhat less disconcerted by the partner scrolling through his phone - & wouldn’t even have noticed the unusually masculine-looking woman hypothesised. There are always exceptions, outliers & variations within any social standard or convention, whether the need for a male carer to enter a female space, the odd rather thoughtless make second-opinion-giver, or the clothes & hair styles women choose!

The difference now is that the very existence of single sex spaces is at risk, because of the increasing, & sometimes enforced attempts to normalise the presence of males in them.

Of COURSE this will make some women more wary of cases they may not have questioned or even noticed previously. Of COURSE it makes them more anxious, & likely to speak up. Because, statistically, this removal of the social contract of single-sex entry only bar the odd exception itself will increase the risk of assault or voyeurism. How, realistically, could it not?

The exceptions, outliers & variations have lost that status, which protected them, & are instead regrettably subsumed into a wider threat to women’s rights & safety.

And so not only women suffer, but also others - the female in a wheelchair, the quietly committed transsexual - may be liable to encounter a resistance they wouldn’t have before.

Everyone loses out.

And cases like those being cited are used to justify the further erosion of women’s rights, which adds flames to the fire that keeps everyone losing out.

I just posted the same, in as many words, on another thread. People can argue over individual instances til the cows come home, but it’s the trends they represent that is the real issue, & these trends, for me, make women’s wariness & anxiety wholly understandable.

We need third spaces.

Hmm ok . You said yourself that you were “fooled once by a transexual man that looked like a short ugly middle aged woman”

Going back to the hypothetical question in the op. Would I chase a person dressed as a woman (I suspected was a man) out of a changing room queue?
No I wouldn’t. He could be an “ugly middle aged woman”. I’m not going to inspect the person’s hip bust or jaw line for characteristics.

Lots of posters seem to be promoting the idea that any man dressing as a woman is likely to be a sexual deviant with criminal intent? I’m not sure why transsexuals and perverts are being grouped together?

I refuse to live my life labouring under the belief that all men are potential sexual perverts and a threat. I would never undress on a beach, go swimming, be examined by a doctor or walk alone on the streets if I entertained this level of risk aversion.

Theres an alarmingly high percentage of young adults identifying as trans in my sons sixth form. Several have a diagnosis of autism, some are probably just fucking confused. I’m not comfortable with directing hate at them. Or suggesting we should point and jeer at them. They’re victims of trans ideology/identity politics too.

😁

I have no problems with TWs who absolutely pass as women using the women's changing room but what are M&S supposed to do with their unicorns while they're in there?

Unfortunately I lived in a cluster of US university towns with gender studies departments and medical schools; woke central .
Men who are transexual and are attracted to women want to be validated as women it gives them a sexual high.
Lesbians who reject men as sexual partners are the ultimate validation that the man in a wig is a woman. So they clustered to our local Lesbian social groups around 2010.
I also was tricked into meeting a man for a coffee date by a manipulated photo on OK Cupid back then.
Instead of a woman there was a 6' foot man in a wig and a dress. I was furious and scared.
There's more, but this answers your question.

There were gay men who were transexual and visited our group too, I guess out of LGBT or curious or to see if they passed...they were obnoxious too.

I have no propblem with mixed changing rooms providing they provide secure lockable cubicles within. I don't care if there is a man in the cubicle next to me trying on a pair of jeans while I'm trying on, say, a dress. But I do have a problem with "visitors' crossing the threshold when they are not trying on.

Goodness, how ever do single women manage to try things on, without a man to rescue them?

🤢

Omg. And M&S does nothing to try to patrol this? Disgusting fuckers

Oops I wrote butches, blast you autocorrect!

So stop with the nonsense, I've gone out with plenty of sporty androgynous lesbians, a few bitches too.
A full photo would show an obvious woman maybe 5'4" with hips and bust and smooth skin,
no Adams Apple, big brow 5 o' clock
'shadow, big jaw , big height or
Cock and balls
90% of trans who are male keep their penis and testicles. So they have secondary sexual characteristics that even children recognize.

I’m not promoting uni sex changing areas as an ideal solution.

I can see why M and S have gone with the policy of having individual changing cubicles with lockable doors in all their stores now.
A- because it’s difficult to assign a sex to some men and women based on sight . A notice indicating “women only” would be adhered by most but difficult to police.

B-Large sections of their market are customers ( particularly the younger generations )who are overwhelmingly against any whiff of non inclusivity.
It would be industry suicide to promote segregation of trans women from women in a clothes shop.
M and S only care about profits- any political posturing is simply marketing.

Lots of things in life are difficult. @SmileyClare Does that mean we should throw up our hands and not even try? Lockable cubicles bring a whole other raft of problems. And to be safe they would need to open directly into the shop area. The logistics of that wouldn't be easy.
It's a sad fact of life that women and girls need protection from male violence and voyeurism. And that's without even considering our right to privacy.

Ok let’s go with “accusations of discrimination” instead of discrimination charges.

I just wanted to make a point about the difficulty in policing a womens changing area when it may be difficult to discern who is male or female.

This is a woman with short hair for example who could be confused with a man.

Women have a safe space to enter and the shops are not facing discrimination charges on the trans issue.

what “discrimination charges” do you think they can be up for? There is no legal right for men to be allowed into women’s changing rooms. If anything it’s the opposite but shops are cowtowing to the trans lobby.

Providing individual changing cubicles with lockable doors seems the most suitable solution for shops, in the current climate.

Women have a safe space to enter and the shops are not facing discrimination charges on the trans issue.

only if you consider so called “Primark porn” to be no issue.

I doubt a person looking like this would be stopped and refused entry into a woman’s changing cubicle in M and S.

Let’s stop pretending that all trans women look like beefy men in wigs.

In principle I agree that women are entitled to female only spaces.

Providing individual changing cubicles with lockable doors seems the most suitable solution for shops, in the current climate.

Women have a safe space to enter and the shops are not facing discrimination charges on the trans issue.

Staff cannot be expected to police members of the public on their sex if it is not clear from their appearance.

😳🤢

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would you meet a lot of transexual men in life because you are lesbian in particular? I’ve only seen a few myself, and very very rarely.

I doubt it. Puberty blockers actually make boys end up taller not "petite" And neither they nor hormones can alter pelvic size shape or tilt.

M and s changing rooms have locks so you are pretty safe . I work in women's retail and often men go in the changing room. I always challenge them and ask them to leave . I have had some nasty responses but I don't care . We have curtains and most women aren't very good at pulling it across . I have seen all sorts in there so I'm sure men get an eye full ..

What I don't understand is why husbands think it's ok 🙄🙄

Ultimately the shop gets to decide though and if you don't like it you write/email to complain or go elsewhere. You don't do the equivalent of a vegan walking into a butcher's and kicking off.

This wasn't a 'mixed sex area' though. The OP said there weren't any signs but it was in the women's underwear section. The man wasn't trying to use it as a mixed sex changing room. He was in a changing room obviously provided for the use of women trying on underwear. I don't care whether it's a ruse or he's got a fetish or not. I don't want him in there a few inches away while I'm in a state of undress talking to the assistant about a very female part of my body.
If his wife genuinely needs assistance because of age or disability, not simply because he wants to give an opinion, they should be directed to a mixed sex disabled cubicle.