I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

(Can’t even remember what went where John McEnroe has appeared above. New phone & multi-tasking. Will check from now on!)

No one WOULD question - at least with the same degree of confidence as in the recent past.

I’m more wary of darkly lit station platforms now precisely because I know no one found question man following me into the previous potential refuge of the ladies’ loos. I’m not limiting myself much accordingly - very confident, in-depth eg McEnroe, well-travelled. But it’s become another relevant consideration on top of all the usual ones we all best in mind when travelling.

That, too. These issues are so often presented as either/or to enable the dismissal of one concern as of negligible significance in relation to the other. But both are significant: 1) in different ways, for different reasons, due to their different contexts (see posts above!)… but, also, 2) for the reason you give - two sides of the same coin. And they do each affect societal conventions & standards. Framing women defending single sex spaces as hysterical Karen contributes to the silencing of & lack of respect for women’s public voice more generally. Removing single sex spaces does impact on some women’s access to & confidence levels moving in public spaces more generally.

Women's safety on the streets and women's privacy and dignity in changing rooms are two sites of the same coin. The challenge to both is the same thing: men believing they have the right to take what they want from women.

So based on reductive stereotypes again. Good oh.

From my understanding of what "passing" actually means in reality, it's if straight men on average perceive a trans woman as a bio woman, they pass, and if women on average view them as conventionally "pretty", they pass - So they don't really oppose in my mind I s'pose - Not sure if I've worded that particularly well, hope that makes sense!

As much as I adore Blaire White for example, and think she "passes" -
In videos where you can see her entire self, or videos where she's been on someone else's video/show and it's someone else's camera & lighting set up rather than her own, (at least imo) you can tell she's not biologically female.

So you can tell but they pass? Aren’t they opposing points?Isn’t the fact that they aren’t biologically female - and can’t become biologically female regardless of how much facial surgery they have - enough to say they don’t belong in female spaces?

Same at the Old Vic. :-(

Women's, Men's and Mixed Sex. All good. That's the third space women have been asking for for years.

Toilets and Toilets with Urinals? No good at all. Men get a space that is exclusively theirs. Men get another space with women. Women get no exclusive space from men.

It doesn't matter what the French do. In this country ever since public toilets have been provided for women (and it's not that long, look up 'the urinary leash') they have been single sex.

A thought from listening to others here. A recent work visit to a large international company in a headquarters building had loos on the ground floor after reception, "Womens' toilets", "Mens' toilets" and "gender neutal toilets". Would the shop changing room solution be..."Womens' Changing Rooms" , Mens Changing Rooms and "Unisex changing rooms with locking cubicles", then people like myself who are not bothered could opt for the latter if it is quieter and others can use gender specific if they choose to.

In a similar situation the Barbican Centre offers "Toilets" and "Toilets with Urinals" On entry the urinals come after the cubilces through another door. The French have been relaxed about this style for years.

Not sure if it's just me, but I'm not a huge fan of when pictures of people get brought into the conversation - The photos in this thread are a good example of why.

Sure, it's probably harder to distinguish who is and who isn't whatever sex when you're just looking at their face and literally cannot see anything else.
But height, build, gait, overall demeanour etc.
All of these things that we register subconsciously when "taking someone in" in the real world are sooooo so important.
And these things can't really be gauged from a still image, where they've likely taken a million selfies to get the "perfect" one.
I just don't think photos in general are a good way to make that point when everything the pictures people take are so fake to begin with, people will only post what they want other's to see and when it comes down to things like males in female spaces, when it's in real life, and it matters, you can tell.

As much as I adore Blaire White for example, and think she "passes" -
In videos where you can see her entire self, or videos where she's been on someone else's video/show and it's someone else's camera & lighting set up rather than her own, (at least imo) you can tell she's not biologically female.

@GEC44 even more reason to keep changing rooms single sex.

Belatedly realise that my hypothetical little old lady seems rather inconsistent in her habits above - but you get the point! 😂

@StarlightLady

Why can’t we be concerned about safety on dark streets AND privacy & dignity in changing spaces? Should the little old lady who never goes out alone anyway disregard her discomfort changing near men because younger women face a wholly unrelated threat on the streets she doesn’t use?

And as regards exchange policies, I’m well aware of this: this afternoon, I’ll be going out & paying for parking to make my second trip to, hopefully, get the right undies second time around.

You’re right that there are bigger issues - safety on the streets - & there are ways around this - exchanging purchases. But I don’t see how these relate to the issue in question, unless the suggestion is, once again, that women’s concerns about changing rooms are unreasonable, & they should accept the additional, not inconsiderable, issues they face getting around these (should my hypothetical little old lady wobble her way through 4 bus trips to the shops instead of 2 simply be able to change in privacy? should I, for that matter?!)

This is because how a man identifies means nothing to me personally. I’ll respect his choices, but how can I (WHY should I?!) FEEL any differently MYSELF because of how HE feels? That’s impossible - his internal perspective of himself is utterly inaccessible to me as a separate, autonomous, thinking being.

This is absolutely key to the whole nonsense of the ideology.

I am not a woman because my internal perspective of myself is the same as yours. What you and I have in common, that makes us both women, is our biology.

A male who claims that what he and I have in common, that makes us both women, is our internal perspective that we are women - is deluded. The internal perspective of a woman is utterly inaccessible to him as a separate, autonomous, thinking being.

(Not so sure about the thinking)

And I don't want men walking in when they are not trying anything on.

What's the difference? Can you explain? I don't understand why you would feel comfortable with a man trying on clothes but not one who is there to help his wife with zips or his opinions?

I take the points here, but I am more concerned about safety on a dark street than a changing room with staff nearby. And with M&S, they have a good exchange policy, so you can buy and try something in the privacy of your own home.

Either mixed or single sex, I don't want a flimsy curtain though. And I don't want men walking in when they are not trying anything on.

Tall men, short men, pretty men, ugly men, young men, middle aged men,
men in trousers, men in kilts, men in dresses
Men like Eddie Izzard with painted nails and lippy or infamous fake lesbian Alex Drummond with mustache and beard
all men belong
in men's changing rooms, bathrooms, sports, etc.,
Ladies; Don't be Nice, Don't be Kind
We need to reclaim women's rights to
single sex spaces NOW

If M & S returned to their socially acceptable policy of men and women's changing rooms with some mixed sex spaces for the terminally confused, then we'd go back to relying on the social contract. This allows women to know that the men who enter are those with the red flags - they don't respect women's boundaries. It wouldn't help poor shop assistants with challenging people - but it would stop many of the situations discussed in this thread.

Thanks for doing this, OP! 👏

Crossed post with Catiette.

Some women are fine with men in the changing room. Others are not. They matter too and their dignity and privacy should be respected.

Thank you for sharing that, Catiette. I hope you find the right thing for your event.

I do appreciate some women want the privacy (modesty) of a completely female space- including not being in ear shot of men.

I was going to post that God no- I wouldn’t give two hoots if a man overheard a bra fitting. I regularly go topless on the beach too.
However, we’re all different. Perhaps due to religion, upbringing or even trauma. I do respect that and some of these posts have made me stop and think about the importance of protecting womens spaces.

My question was really addressed to the PP on her own in the house with the electrician. Because I was trying to make the point it's not just about safety.

StarlightLady because you make the distinction between a locked door/curtain and being alone/in a group in the pub it's clearly a safety issue for you rather than privacy or dignity. That's fine. But there are other women for whom dignity and privacy is important. Why are their feelings less important than those of the man who wants to be in the cubicle next door?

I've had a male plumber working in the house recently. He's absolutely lovely. I also don't think for a moment he would attack me or install a spy cam or rummage through my knicker drawer. But I still wouldn't want to have a conversation in his hearing about my breasts and underwear.

Thanks, @SmileyClare.

Re: locked doors, @CriticalCondition’s response is very pertinent, I think. I wasn’t going to post this precisely bc I’m such a private person, but one of the reasons I’m engaging in this chat today is actually because I was, yesterday afternoon, in a locked M&S bra-fitting cubicle trying on undies. And because, as I browsed for possibilities, a lovely sales assistant recommended a fitting. And because, despite this being long overdue, & the benefits of it to my health (purse!) & appearance at the big event I was buying for, I declined.

I declined for two, linked reasons. 1) As I’d been changing a few minutes earlier, I’d overheard the bra-fitting of a teenage girl in the adjacent cube, & the conversation was disconcertingly explicit & intimate, even for another female to overhear! 2) The changing cubicles weren’t labelled female only, & I know M&S’s policy is “inclusive” of males.

I’m sufficiently private that even the thought of being fitted by an unknown woman with other women overhearing is rather off-putting & takes a degree of resolve. I’ve only felt comfortable enough doing it in the past because of the unspoken social contract that it would only be women overhearing. Even the thought of a male I know & trust overhearing would be anathema.

That promise of privacy & dignity is gone now.

My knowledge that the probability that a male may hear every word & detail is now much, much higher than it was previously has made it proportionately harder for me to access this service - a service something recommended for my health.

This is because how a man identifies means nothing to me personally. I’ll respect his choices, but how can I (WHY should I?!) FEEL any differently MYSELF because of how HE feels? That’s impossible - his internal perspective of himself is utterly inaccessible to me as a separate, autonomous, thinking being.

And on top of that, yes, there is the possibility that he may be a voyeur, that he may lie, that he may simply relish hearing my fitting as a reinforcement of his own identity. I don’t know. I CAN’T know.

I’ve lost the previous virtual certainty of privacy & dignity that made this service accessible to me.