I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

I think this is actually very true, I've served trans women in shops before and they asked to try on shoes etc in our stock room for privacy as they were worried about other people staring or making comments. I work with a number of trans individuals and none of them would ever go swimming because they feel exposed, vulnerable and it can trigger their body dysphoria, so much so that local pools have started doing trans only swimming sessions arranged through a few charities. I'd be less concerned about a trans woman in a changing room, than a random bloke in a mixed swimming pool changing room for example. I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful, there's much easier ways to go about it than living as a trans person, he can just go to any swimming pool with village changing. So I'd feel more comfortable with a trans woman in female only changing than your average man in shared changing spaces.

I know, I went back and tried to correct some of the pronouns too 😂

We all know what sex people are. There is no such thing as compelled speech (yet), thank God.

You need to watch out, you are misgendering like fury here. I’m quite surprised that the lovely ‘lad’ hasn’t mentioned it to you tbh.

Some rather naive (or disingenuous?) comments in defence of men entering women’s spaces (including mixed sex sets of cubicles above).

Re: so-called policing - see my earlier post re. the loss of the social contract that used to suffice to keep women’s spaces private bar the odd understandable & accepted exception; policing wasn’t needed then, & a return to that convention would remove the (perceived) need for policing now; meanwhile, the addition of third spaces would offer an option for those who need it or are genuinely indifferent to mixed sex (we did it for the disabled; why not trans etc. individuals?)

Re: the assumption that someone uneasy about discussing intimate body parts in a man’s hearing would struggle to call out a man on his presence or behaviour - 1) again, the social contract used to address this by making the calling out a communal effort of common consent 2) the apparent correlation between a need for privacy of this kind & other behavioural/personality traits suggests a rather limited understanding of the very nature of privacy & dignity, & of the multitude of reasons a person may seek privacy from the opposite sex.

FWIW, for better or worse (& while I’m always safety conscious & courteous, it has sometimes led to grief!), I’m one of those who is prepared to speak up very clearly & loudly when many others don’t in all manner of contexts! 😁

One woman's threshold for that knot in the pit of her stomach might be entirely different to another's. The woman who has experienced an assault, for example, or the woman who has been fortunate enough never to have experienced any sort of threat.

In principle, I agree but then look at someone like the lad my son went to school with-
22 yrs and presenting as a woman, lives with his(I mean her?) boyfriend, doesn’t cause trouble, they walk their dogs or have a drink in our local, pleasant guys.
They use the Ladies toilet in the pub, I’ve never really given it much thought until now and I don’t think any of the regulars seem bothered.

Sounds similar to my young friend. Both male, though. Should use male facilities. The regulars might seem unbothered but you don't know what they are thinking - even if not actually alarmed, they might have been outraged/annoyed/embarrassed but unwilling to say anything. Or some women might have avoided the establishment altogether if they'd realised. There's no difference in principle between your son's schoolfriend and Isla Bryson/Adam Graham. The reason they both need to stay out of female facilities is because they are male.

I've seen tweets by people claiming special identities (mainly female people) who make a point of using unisex facilities. One (male) changed at home before and after using the gym. Anyone with a modicum of consideration for others can find ways to live their life in a way that feels comfortable for them, while not imposing on other people. That's all we ask.

Maybe this is some "woo woo" stuff, but I feel like there's something to be said for the vibe a person is giving off.
At the end of the day, if someone is genuinely not a threat, you won't perceive them as one and won't feel the need to call it out.

I'm sure we've all here experienced that knot in the pit of your stomach when the mood in the air changes, whether it's directed at you or not.
You can kind of intuit whether someone's intent is positive, neutral or negative generally, whether that's minute body language signals or whatever, I'm no expert obviously lol

Fair enough, I can’t disagree with your counter argument @snowypeaks

. Don’t mind being challenged! I have been a bit naive.

I can’t get on board with the hate and vitriol directed at individuals though.

In principle, I agree but then look at someone like the lad my son went to school with-
22 yrs and presenting as a woman, lives with his(I mean her?) boyfriend, doesn’t cause trouble, they walk their dogs or have a drink in our local, pleasant guys.
They use the Ladies toilet in the pub, I’ve never really given it much thought until now and I don’t think any of the regulars seem bothered.

I mean on one hand we have women that feel threatened and intimidated by even the idea that a man might overhear them discussing their breasts, yet those same women are expected to get dressed, and confront that man , shame him and demand he leaves the area?

Yes. Why not? Depends on the area and what you feel safe doing. In the queue for the toilets, you don't need to get dressed since you are outside the cubicle. Woman A in the changing room might be too scared to say anything, Woman B might not be. But in principle, enforcing boundaries is a necessary move. You don't have to shame him. But the message has to go out loud and clear that women will enforce our boundaries.
No need to imply that women who want privacy from men are silly.

I mean on one hand we have women that feel threatened and intimidated by even the idea that a man might overhear them discussing their breasts, yet those same women are expected to get dressed, and confront that man , shame him and demand he leaves the area?

Well yes I’m not identifying as a man but have typically boyish figure- narrow hips small bust. I would be embarrassed if I was questioned in a queue.

There must be other women like me that don’t want to confront a man (trans or not) in public and demand they leave? Maybe I’m wrong to think mistakes could be made over the sex of a person, but I likely wouldn’t have the backing of store staff (particularly shops with neutral changing areas) or even the backing of other women.

I suppose there is no other resolution in this climate.

I don't think SmileyClare is a woman at all ...

In my 20s I had short hair and a slim boyish figure and my fashion style was British schoolboy. And yes I got called "Sir" from behind a number of times. And had a laugh.

Women understand the caution because 1 out of 3 women are sexually assaulted by MEN.

We're not going to be silent and 'kind' anymore to these men who get off transgressing our boundaries.

Whether they are intentionally looking like men or not, women can and should be challenged in women's spaces if they look like they could be men. When I was younger, I was one of those women. And yes, it is hurtful if people think you're a man when you're not, but I was happy to provide "proof" by replying...and the tension dissipated immediately they heard my voice. The hurt/embarrassment is on the men who try to get into women's facilities and the women who want to enable them.

Women, don't be embarrassed about challenging someone who looks as if they shouldn't be in a particular space. We are entitled to privacy, dignity and safety.

Women are entitled to dress in a typically masculine or androgynous fashion if they wish. Many go as far as binding their breasts or taking male hormones to imitate a male look
Surely if that's the case they might well expect to be considered male, and as such can hardly be surprised if their presence in a female toilet / changing room is questioned? They'd probably welcome the validation...

I didn’t say all women with short hair look like men- you’re missing my point completely.

Women are entitled to dress in a typically masculine or androgynous fashion if they wish. Many go as far as binding their breasts or taking male hormones to imitate a male look.
Some women just have masculine features quite naturally- a strong jaw, tall, broad shoulders etc.
They should be able to access women’s toilets without fear of being scrutinised by vilgilante queue members- who might accuse them of being a man. Yes we all know you can tell if you look at their hips or skin or listen to their voice. In other words- they have to prove themselves- you have to look for proof.

Im questioning whether we as women should encourage each other to confront men in our spaces? Is it the solution? How easy is that to do in reality?

Ive actually never witnessed a woman confronting a man and chasing him out of a female space although I read about it happening fairly regularly on Mumsnet and everyone applauds.

I saw a man with dc entering the cubicles in a communal toilet at a farm park recently. No one reacted.

I think the husbands/male partners of women who enter the changing rooms with them are idiots, and their wives/partners are in on it too, maybe some women have no choice due to the male partner's insistence etc..

I don't know of any man in my circle including my own fella who would ever dream of going into the women's changing areas anywhere.

Women can bring a female friend/relative to zip them up or whatever.

are staff grilling the masculine woman with short hair in a coat who could be a man?
Where does this "women with short hair look like men" thing come from?? It's patently absurd.

Well done, OP. The man in question meant no harm but asserting boundaries is a good thing. A man has no business in the fitting room of the women's lingerie section, regardless of signage. Exceptional circumstances might necessitate it.

And yes, it would have been harder to discourage a male claiming to be a woman because of understandable fears of overreaction or accusations of transphobia or not being backed up.

Mixed sex changing rooms are a proven danger for women.
Mixed sex changing rooms to me I think of family villages in leisure centres, swimming pools, that's where I've come across them before.
I see them as beneficial as if a single Dad for example took his child swimming then he has somewhere they can get changed together

SmileyClare; Stop the continued nonsense :
"where it may be difficult to judge a person’s sex on first look"

It's easy , so easy small children can correctly sex people.
And yes, this not-tall angry Lesbian is prepared to make a giant hue and cry if there is a man in the Ladies locker room, bathroom, changing area, ladies sport team.

It's very simple, woman are a huge voting force; we have power. We need to use it loudly , publically, continually
to get what we want.
Don't be kind.
Be Loud and Angry Ladies!

I do feel that women have the right to our own spaces.

Is the idea that women join forces and take it upon themselves to chase an (obvious) man from a changing area actually realistic?

Im certainly not prepared to confront a man in a changing area and get into a debate/ argument about his identity or his human rights, or attempt to forcibly remove him?
Despite lots of denial there are reasonable exceptions (eg carer) or grey areas where it may be difficult to judge a person’s sex on first look.

If a store hasnt labelled a changing area as “Women only” I wouldn’t have the backing of staff members to do this.

The debate over enforcing single sex changing areas has been rumbling on for years now with little resolution. I’m not suggesting we roll over and accept men in our spaces but it’s not as simple as (female) members of the public making a scene. Maybe it is? I suppose I feel quite conflicted!

Perhaps change for future generations would start if we stop teaching our children that men can become women by dressing as them.

Mixed sex changing rooms are a proven danger for women.

Men are easy to recognize with their greater height, bulk, hips, Adams apple, brow, burgeoning beard. A child can tell.

The answer is for women's single sex provisions to be upheld and the social contact that men keep out of women's single sex spaces reinforced and women feel empowered once more to raise a hue and cry when men try to violate our boundaries.

Remember the teenage girls telling Eddie Izzard of? These men need to be shamed and to go use men's toilets and spaces and enjoy their trans euphoria there .

The whole toilet/ changing room thing is a mess. Who is preventing men- who “present” as women entering the women only?
Are staff going to be hired to filter out the men that look like women (as mentioned upthread. Yes- it’s usually possible if you study demeanour, gait, build etc) are staff grilling the masculine woman with short hair in a coat who could be a man? It’s a minefield because as a society there are no hard definitions of how the sexes should dress or present themselves as there were years ago.

Or are we as members of the public expected to go vigilante and “chase out” anyone we suspect of being a man from changing areas?
Are we making women too fearful by promoting the notion that any man entering a unisex space is a sexual predator?

I still think the only obvious solution is individual locked cubicles.

FWIW I'm not saying I agree with it, it's just what the realities of what the term "passing" actually means in day to day life when it's used as far as I can tell anyway😅