I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

I think most men would feel very uncomfortable in a woman’s changing area. I know my husband wouldn’t go anywhere near them.
Yes lingerie is women only. The attendant in John Lewis asked me if I wanted to come back later as there was a man in there. He was helping his wife who was blind. Yes these were curtained off cubicles.

If it’s anything like our nearest M&S - large out of town kind - then they have abolished women’s changing rooms completely. They have three changing rooms labelled as follows:

• Men” (because they still get their own space don’t they?!)
• “Lingerie” - what used to be the women’s changing rooms, but that wasn’t inclusive enough of the men who get their kicks out of trying on and w@nking over women’s underwear. Or those who just like to intimidate women by their presence and to co-opt women’s spaces:
• “Try it on” - unisex changing room.

Slow clap for M & S.

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This thread honestly makes me feel despair. So far we've had more than one disabled woman who needs her DP's assistance wondering what on earth they should do, women laughing at other women for being "fat and ugly", the suggestion that men who help women shopping are abusive, and women urging each other to challenge anyone who doesn't look feminine enough. All of this in changing rooms that are not even women's changing rooms. You have no idea what's going on in someone else's life. There are many legitimate reasons why someone might want their male partner with them. To add an example to those already listed, I have a relative who is almost blind, her DH helps her with all her shopping.

Oh early puberty blockers, where young effeminate boys, who 80% of the time grow up to be happy gay men are chemically castrated , made unable to orgasm, shot full of female hormones that wreak havoc on a male body and then suffer from all kinds of conditions as they grow older.

It's child abuse and it's starting to be stopped in many countries.

I was in House of Fraser and one of the womans clothing section had a changing area. Cubicles behind curtains and then an outside area with the big mirror. An older bloke was sat in the area obviously with his missus in one of the cubicles. It was really uncomfortable coming out to look at yourself in the mirror with a bloke sat there. not that I thought he was pervy but that it was male gaze. That slightly judgy thing men do. as women we know we aren't wearing the dress we are trying with holey socks or greying bra but there he was ... I said nothing. always wish I had.

There are a few dozen such kids in the entire country. We don't have to change the entire social order, or pretend that we're suddenly unable to tell men from women, because of them.

I went to tk maxx recently and, even though they have men’s on one side and women’s on the other, two young and slightly rowdy men were on the women’s side trying on clothes and talking/hanging around in the middle of the aisle. I’m not sure why they were on the women’s side tbh. It surprised me how uncomfortable and nervous I felt, and I wish the staff had directed them to the other side but maybe they felt they couldn’t? I wished I’d said something myself, so well done you!

Yet again making a man's behaviour the fault of a woman.

I'm a bit torn on this, I think if you want a second opinion you'd ideally bring a female friend with you
Why? It's not a mystical skill dependent on XX chromosome.

I'm pretty sure USA has (or had, anyway) single-sex cubicles.
It's possible that I just don't remember it from the US, that I just complied and forgot. Or it might differ between places. I'm more sure about Canada, as I've been there longer and more recently.

They look like men on wigs

The younger generations- boys starting as teens on hormone blockers at early puberty easily pass for women.
My 22 year old son has a friend who transitioned when he was young. He ( she) looks and talks like a very petite feminine woman and is actually very beautiful

That was my immediate thought too. Pretty misogynistic to leap to the conclusion that she is stupid or immature.

A person’s sex is not easily determined on sight

Really? How often have you made a mistake about it.

I've had to ask thousands - probably 10s of thousands - of strangers to undress (HCP!). I have never ever been surprised by their sex when they took their clothes off.

For real? You want to laugh at "fat" or "ugly" women? 😬🤔

nor do I remember meeting single sex shop areas in any other country (Europe/NorthAm).
I'm pretty sure USA has (or had, anyway) single-sex cubicles. Many Americans are very puritanical about nudity, even amongst those of the same sex, and even with children, and will do all sorts of gymnastics under a towel to get dressed in a communal changing room after swimming: I've seen them do it and I was boggled.

I'm a bit torn on this, I think if you want a second opinion you'd ideally bring a female friend with you- I'm thinking along the lines if she'd recently had a surgery and wasn't confident in wearing new underwear or needed help getting changed (severe arthritis would make this really difficult for my mum for example but she'd be more comfortable with my dad than a female sales assistant but she'd never have in a changing room and the man would rather die than go in). But I don't see anyone thinking it's a good idea to have a man in a woman's changing room. My dh would stand outside and I'd come out if I wanted his opinion (obviously not just in underwear). Anne Summers in our city has their changing rooms as self contained cubicles on the main shop floor and they have peek holes controlled from the inside for this purpose which is a better way to address it I think.

I would challenge a man dressed as a man in that scenario, but I wouldn't challenge someone perceived as being a trans woman because I've seen cases where security have been involved and the person wasn't trans at all just a woman with more masculine features and I have female friends who have been perceived as being trans before when they aren't. They've as much right to go about their daily life minding their business as the rest of us. If anyone was being deliberately creepy, oggling or using their phone suspiciously then I'd pass it on to the staff to deal with. The last time I was in m&s the sales assistant in the lingere dept was male which surprised me. He was perfectly professional but I was hesitant about asking about bra fittings which is why I'd come in in the first place. I'd like to imagine the other sales assistant who was female would have carried those out.

I generally support women standing their ground, and I often do myself, but I can't here.

For me the changing cubicles area isn't a single sex space. It just isn't a thing in my country (EU), nor do I remember meeting single sex shop areas in any other country (Europe/NorthAm).

I don't enjoy shopping, and I often have my DP with me because I never know which cut will work for me in which size, so I'm trying things on and he runs around the shop trying to find "this cut, one size bigger/smaller, no matter the colour".

I don't want to criticise your decision, maybe it was totally in-line with the local rules... It's just interesting how local habits influence what seems normal to us.

Instead of speaking for the poster and assuming must be a TRA trying to turn the tables to make everyone else look bad (lol, what, mental gymnastics tbere) would be interesting to see what @Holly60 meant themselves

It isn't clear whether or not it was a female only changing space though. If it was, he shouldn't have entered. If it wasn't....

Sounds like a rather clumsy and tasteless TRA attempt at turning the tables to me. The pp felt like laughing bc she couldn't perceive the elfin feminine grace in some 6'5'' bloke, so @Holly60 decided to be witty by slurring middle-aged women instead. A+ for effort, D for execution.

Again, you seem to be ignoring what people are actually saying.
Whar about women who aren't trans?
It's utter bull to just parrot "we can always tell"
No you can't.
Not all women look feminine.
Also passing trans men exist.
Even if you reckon you can always tell, that still relies on everyone else making a judgement over other women and their looks.

A person’s sex is not easily determined on sight.
LOL. 99.99% of the time it's totally clear, clothes not withstanding.

Now and then an enveloping garment and an androgynous face can make you wonder, but then the person will move or speak...

You may want to try Specsavers.

It's easy, I've met lots of transwomen (men) in my Lesbian social circle;
They look like men in wigs
big hulking men with Adams apples and a prominent brow ridge.

The best way to keep them out is tell them to go the Men's and point and laugh

Nothing kills trans euphoria faster than laughing which breaks the fantasy.

Women, access your inner Unkind Amazon
It's the only way to take back our
single sex space!

Point...missed.

ANY man in the lingerie changing rooms is disconcerting (with the exception of a man who is obviously assisting a woman - and even then I'd expect him to keep his focus on her).

The issue is that you can't tell the pervs from the non-pervs, not till they start perving. And it's too late by then.

Yea, who gets to decide who looks female enough? It sounds like just another way to police a woman's appearance.