This is outrageous - medical paper argues that wanting healthy, undeformed babies should be "queered"

We demanded equality of autonomy for all women, didn't we?

Yes we did; but this is not autonomy. Its a medical experiment on a fetus that cannot consent.

I don't think there's anyone here that thinks rights should not be balanced by responsibilities.

Yes. Having grown up with a sibling who suffered from a disability due to something that is now entirely preventable, I know I would do everything to not make choices that are known to make my child’s life more challenging.

You're missing a some. Not all women (or men) are so desperate to reproduce or become parents that we will take enormous risks or do things that are ethically dubious. I speak from (limited) experience as it took us a long time to conceive our first child and we had started to talk about what would happen if it never happened. In our case, we would have accepted it. We would both have been very sad indeed as a result, especially me, as I wanted to have children as far back as I can remember, but I couldn't face the rollercoaster ride of IVF and we wouldn't have been suitable candidates for adoption in the UK. I do think the UK has it right in putting the children's welfare well before the wishes of the prospective adopters, and I have unbounded admiration for the people who do get through the screening and take on these children who've had the most difficult start in life and need a new family.

I am sorry, but I don’t really know what you are talking about. Would you clarify please?

Buttergasp!

How cisheteronormative of you, Clymene!

Isn't this against the Hippocratic Oath - do no harm?

Surely if they know it does harm it's against the oath they take?

In that video it was interesting to note that her legally fictitious status as a male was preventing her getting access to insurance - as a female - which she needed in relation to her pregnancy.

This is exactly why it needs to be clarified that sex in the Equality Act means biological sex so that fiction does not cancel sex based rights.

Trans activists do not seem to realise this.

@Hellofabore *But it is wholly unethical to experiment on infants (or even foetuses, surely after the age of an embryo that can be destroyed). So, how does society get that conclusive information using humans?

So, these female people are arguing that their infants should be the experiments?

I agree that more research is needed. And yes, 'proper medical research'. But NOT at the expense of exposing children to these experiments.*

The awful fact is, we, women who want to reproduce, have grabbed every possible opportunity to do so at any cost. The more desperate the situation the further we'll go to win a baby. Women knowingly permit untried experimental treatments on themselves, and on their foetuses in utero. Some women , for entirely selfish reasons, knowingly risk their unborn baby's development and safety. There is no lie or self-deception women won't use, no fear we won't ignore, in order to make a baby.

We demanded equality of autonomy for all women, didn't we? Even the women who are NOT LIKE ME. Now we have infinite choice plenty of us fuck it up. There is no lie or self-deception women won't tell, no fear they won't ignore, in order to make a baby.

Transpregnancy is just the latest chapter in a very old story that belongs to all of us.

Couple of interesting comments on the "Is There a Doctor in the House" article by
JENNIFER LAHL MA, BSN, RN AND KALLIE FELL, MS, BSN, RN
17 July 2023

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house/comment/20949931

Sandra Pinches

"I attended a workshop led by a trans man who is a local expert on transitioning. He told us that testosterone has such powerful effects on a woman's body that she can be fully transitioned within a few months to male voice range, development of male hair distribution, and muscle if she works out hard enough. He said that most female patients slow down the process by taking lower doses of testosterone, just because they don't want to be stressed by the rapid physical changes. Women who take the maximum allowed dosages don't have to keep taking testosterone. A lot of them do, because they think of it as a "male hormone" and because they like the energizing, antidepressant effects of it. "Pausing" the administration of testosterone will not result in a woman returning to a female appearance, as the voice and hair distribution changes are permanent once established. That is why detransitioners continue to speak in the male range, and if they have developed male pattern hair loss, they are probably stuck with it. The entire argument that pausing the testosterone injections would have an adverse impact on a woman who wants to be a man is invalid."

Genderwang

Excellent point!

So if the whole premise is invalid then the rationale for not pausing (or not stopping) testosterone medication is what?

To enable experimentation on foetuses in utero and breast-feeding babies?

Or, since the paper's authors consider "non-normative" offspring to be potentially good for society and "trans people": to facilitate the production of children and adults with sometimes very serious, life-long medical conditions as well as sometimes ambiguous genitalia and "non-normative" secondary sexual characteristics?

• "These offspring-focused risk-avoidance strategies and approaches are, we argue, part of the gendered precautionary labor of pregnancy and pregnancy care itself, and not without potentially-harmful consequences for trans people and society more broadly."

The research paper should be titled "Queering Eugenics".

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This is another very good, detailed take-down - which also makes the link with Eugenics:

Defending the Indefensible or It’s Not Us Who Are Acting Like Nazis
Science without conscience is but the ruin of the soul - Francois Rabelais
LUCY LEADER 30 June 2023

It ends:

"Where Hitler viewed his country and society as a body that needed to be purged of viruses in the form of groups of people who didn’t conform to his conception of normal, those under the spell of queer theory believe that normal society needs to be broken up by altering bodies to negate what evolution has designed us to be, even if the price is so harmful that lives are made miserable and short in the process. Both Hitler and the queer theorists blur boundaries, trade in beliefs over facts and twist science into self-serving fictions that have caused great distress and harm to large populations.

I’d say if those who like to go to women’s rights rallies to berate women for believing in biological facts want to bring their swastikas along, they are in good company with the little man with the moustache. I’m not on board with that brand of Gleichschaltung."

("Gleichschaltung" is explained earlier in the article)

https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/defending-the-indefensible-or-its

And another

Here’s one

I don’t but if you search Isle of Ex on YouTube, or Exulansic on Odyssee, she’s the gender critical feminist who analyses the tik toks of people who’ve truly gone down the trans surgery rabbit hole.

she doesn’t have many videos so you can scroll through, you should be able to tell from the thumbnail which woman we’ve been discussing, I don’t know what her name is but she’s small, thin, pearced face, short black hair. The vids have all been uploaded in last 3 months I think

I would be too but these people seem to have no insight. All they want is a story that matches their worldview and will use whatever collateral they need, including children and now babies. How do they have such power and how do otherwise intelligent people think this is ok? Referring to a young trans person we both know, (who has not undergone hormone treatment or surgery yet), I said to a mutual friend that I really hoped thy didn’t go down that route. The reply was ‘well transmen can still get pregnant’
Oh OK that’s fine then!!!! I mean seriously the delusion that this all just great and people can identify as whatever they want except when they want something else. So many of these poor girls are autistic, have mental health issues etc - it is pure criminal that they are being pushed down these permanently life altering paths. The fallout is going to be horrific. Or maybe we’re going to end up in a (western) world where nothing matters except what the individual wants. Tragic.

What in the ever loving fuck did I just read..?????

Thanks so much for all your sympathy regarding my late son. It’s much appreciated. Obviously I’m familiar with cri du chat including the obvious facial characteristics. Does anyone have a link to these TikTok’s?

I see a few people have picked up on this already, but if you weren’t already familiar with cri du chat then that’s a very very close description to the main easily observable symptoms.. The thing is that it’s a genetic condition, so if it’s related in this case to the exogenous hormones then it would be at the stage of egg development. It may not be the case, or it may be a sad coincidence, but if the extra testosterone can cause genetic syndromes at that stage then even if a female person taking testosterone stops taking it once she knows she’s pregnant or even when having unprotected sex, that would be too late to give any protection. Very worrying and sad.

@Rosiesmydog I'm so sorry for your loss

Indeed. I've never heard this question answered.

I was coercively assigned female at birth but I know I'm really a man. Tiresomely, to get all my life paperwork reissued in corrected form, I had to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate and swear an oath that I will spend the rest of my life living as a man. So I did that, and a few days later I made my way to the fertility clinic to get myself pregnant, because nothing says 'I am a man!' more than a pregnant belly. Then I fought for years to get my child's birth certificate corrected to show me as the father, but the out of touch normies in the Supreme Court refused to do it. Then I had another child and was amazed to find out that because I'd had top surgery and don't have any breasts any more, I can't breastfeed my kids. Why didn't anyone explain any of this to me before?

Etc etc. Utterly self-centred and delusional.

If women are so dysphoric they want to take testosterone to make their bodies appear more masculine, then why do they want to bear a child?

In fact, after stating that PCOS is the leading cause of infertility related to ovulation (female) the authors then prioritise symptoms of hair growth and loss as if this is more important. But then devalues these comorbid symptoms as desirable as these are some of the physical attributes trans people may want to develop.

What about the psychological impact of unwanted hair growth or loss?

I don't think she's very interested in the baby tbh. Her focus is entirely on her surgeries, the nasty complications that have arisen from those surgeries, the financial mess she's in as a result of her surgeries, and her determination to have more surgeries very soon.

The baby seems to annoy her rather.

There's some wierd stuff in that paper even before you get to experimenting on unborn children.

Apparently gastric bands are the only way to lose weight. And reference to palmistry, or rather finger lengths?

This is clearly an agenda beyond pregnant trans identified females. They are the guinea pigs to see what happens when you douse a fetus in massive testosterone. Can they carry to term? Does the baby last long enough to breastfeed?

Ultimately, this is research for transplanting wombs into men. If that sounds far fetched, then what other hitherto unthinkables have we witnessed recently?

Yes, I've seen her on TikTok - That poor baby! There was clearly something wrong with the baby developmentally and also physically - the head. She didn't seem to notice. Interesting how the woman who wants to be a man opted to keep her vagina and have the other bits added on. Poor baby.

I was diagnosed with PCOS about 30 years ago despite being skinny. Absence of periods was the main symptom. I 'cured' it with a low carb diet. I produced far less insulin. Insulin is a hormone. It messes with female hormones creating the symptoms. You can also control it with metformin. Periods and fertility returned because I am biologically female.

The main symptoms are not due to an excess of testosterone. If they were, reduction of testosterone would restore ovulation. This is not a care pathway.

Would men ovulate if they had low testosterone levels or do they lack the relevant biology and organs?

I’m so angry about this fraudulent, offensive bollocks masquerading as “research”. 😡🤬

@Froodwithatowel and @Rosiesmydog — so sorry. In all sorts of ways, this transactivist co-opting of the lives of those with medical conditions and disabilities, or who have had children suffering from disability, is deeply troubling and distressing.

And anyone going along with it — like the few “ooh the full paper is so thought-provoking” enablers on this thread — is complicit in a really nasty strain of faux “theory” which is all just designed to hide its support for men’s rights under so-called progressivism.

It’s in reality the very opposite of compassionate and progressive.