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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans guidance out "in next fortnight" - Keegan in The Times - RSE consultation also mentioned

107 replies

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 19:40

Here:

Gillian Keegan: ‘Children have been through so much — you couldn’t pick a worse time to strike’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/984e449a-11d9-11ee-a92d-cf7c831c99b5?shareToken=13b87826a5f64a40bc85211dcd51490d

"Another contentious issue on Keegan’s desk is trans guidance for schools. This week a debate has raged over how to deal with children who identify as cats, dinosaurs or even the moon.

The guidance, which is due to be published in the next fortnight, will be detailed enough to be helpful to teachers in such situations, Keegan promises. “That’s the whole reason it’s there. I know it’s a very polarised issue, teachers should be guided through this.”

The guidance will recommend that children are able to “socially transition” — to use a pronoun of their choice — as long as they have parental consent.

This has already led to a backlash from Tory MPs on the right of the party, who have described it as a “great social experiment”.

“It’s a tricky subject but I think parental consent is the key driver for this,” Keegan says. “Schools aren’t there as doctors or parents. They are there as educators. Parental consent is the most important thing. Parents are responsible for their child.”

Keegan is keen to draw some lines, however. She says that the current guidance is already clear that children must not be allowed to use toilets or changing facilities of the opposite sex.

“We certainly make sure that safe spaces are protected and it’s biological,” she says. “A lot of schools have unisex toilets, a lot of places have single cubicle toilets. If you look at some of the newer toilet builds, they’re units with the toilet and hand basin inside.”

Would it be logical to assume that the government will follow “best practice” from elsewhere? UK Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category across all of its events on grounds of fairness.

Keegan suggests that biological boys will be barred from competing against girls. “You can assume I’ve been logical and you can assume that I’ve used common sense and logic for drafting.”

Equally contentious has been the long-awaited sex and relationships education guidance — due at the end of this year. The curriculum had not been updated for 20 years, so it has been revamped to include issues such as pornography, sexting and consent.

This has led to a proliferation of companies providing lessons in schools, but many are unwilling to share the resources they are teaching for commercial reasons, to the alarm of some parents.

Keegan wrote to schools in March telling them not to enter into contracts with companies that would not allow their materials to be seen and said these should be freely available to parents.

However, a court case this week backed a company wanting to protect its materials. Parents can go to the school and see the resources but cannot make a copy or take it away to seek advice. Is that good enough? “Well we’ve obviously asked a panel to figure it out,” Keegan says. “But I think what is age appropriate has become a big question.”

Ultimately she wants a central bank of resources that schools can draw on and will ask Oak National Academy, a body that creates lesson plans, to do this. Schools would remain free to choose, she said, adding: “The most important thing is what is taught in schools is age appropriate.”"

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 24/06/2023 14:28

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:32

Yes that's the crux of the issue. And why I had issues with Maya's ruling. As it could mean than GI is a belief.

I wondered about this too. Would GI pass the WORIADS test?

Someone would have to define it first.

ArabeIIaScott · 24/06/2023 14:27

TheBiologyStupid · 24/06/2023 01:22

Are they "kite flying" to see how various options play out? Sorry to be cynical...

I don't honestly think anyone has enough of a handle on any of it to be doing any experimental kite flying.

I mean, I think it's all a total mess, as noted upthread. Really, we need to repeal the GRA and get rid of the nonsensical idea that a person can change sex by obtaining a piece of paper or having a certain 'feeling'.

BreatheAndFocus · 24/06/2023 12:12

I don’t think children should be allowed to socially transition at all. Saying they can if they have parental consent, is wrong because it pressurises parents and makes them out to be the baddies if they refuse. This plays into the online TRA manipulation techniques of ‘everyone hates you’, ‘we’re you’re new queer family’, and is very unwise IMO.

Also, parental consent shouldn’t be the be-all and end-all anyway. We don’t let girls undergo FGM if they have parental consent. It’s about protecting the child.

It would be far better to ban social transitioning of children and all school students (because some 18yr olds will still be at school). Most importantly, along with this, schools should teach facts and fill in the gaps that they’ve clearly allowed to develop. Why TF are girls thinking that if they don’t have long hair/wear make up, etc, they must be a boy? Where are these ridiculous regressive ideas coming from and why aren’t they being countered?

When I was at school, we were taught sex equality. We watched videos about women doing jobs that some people might associate with men, eg engineering, tech, etc. We learnt about GNC women. We understood that there weren’t ‘boy things’ and ‘girl things’, and the idea that only men could be astronauts, mathematicians, scientists and so on was laughable crap. we say plenty of female role models who had short hair, dressed in a ‘masculine way’, etc. We learnt about the history of women’s rights and the fight for equality.

The same for boys too. They should know that some boys are feminine. They should understand that mocking feminine boys, or calling them ‘Girls’, ‘Sissies’, ‘Gay’ is homophobic and sexist.

Every child should understand regressive gender stereotypes and how damaging (and silly) they are. There’d then hopefully be a lot less of this GI rubbish and it would be considered far less appealing.

There should also be more teaching about the perfectly normal feelings of fear, upset, anger, awkwardness, etc, at puberty. These feelings shouldn’t be pathologised.

IncomingTraffic · 24/06/2023 11:43

@Apollo441 it is cruel and unfair to tell people that they can change sex or that the are the opposite sex. As your sport example shows, it might seem kind and fair but, ultimately, you’re setting them up for disappointment and frustration when it turns out that they are biologically male and that matters.

It is much better to help them accept their biology and to separate out ‘presentation’ from any of that.

But that would require society to accept that boys in sparkly dresses is totally fine. They can still use the male facilities and compete against other boys. Regardless whether the other boys are wearing dinosaur T-shirts or anything else - so long as it’s suitable for whatever activity they’re doing.

Unfortunately large swathes of society would much prefer this GI stuff than to move past crap gender stereotypes.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 10:54

Absolutely. So, where GI says that a male can be a woman, a parallel could be Islam saying that women must place their prayer mats behind men's prayer mats. Fine, you do you, but nobody else has to go along with it. Where GI says that children can be sterilised, a parallel could be FGM. In which case the democratic, pluralistic society steps in and confirms that children and vulnerable people cannot be allowed to come to harm.

As affirmation and social transition are precursors to GI-driven sterilisation, they cannot be acceptable. Not even in a democratic, pluralistic society. Because they require non-believers to participate in the faith behaviour, and because such a society prioritises safeguarding.

LonginesPrime · 24/06/2023 10:51

Ironically if gender identity wasn’t being forced on people by such authoritarian means and didn’t include people using opposite sex spaces and services then I think more people probably would play the pronoun game to be polite.

Yes, and this is how it worked in the early days of this movement.

The problem is the philosophical and cultural creep from "call this man "she" and treat him as a woman out of courtesy" to "trans women should be treated as women" to "trans women are women", which is inevitable when others are feeding into someone's delusion that they actually are a woman.

Playing along with someone else's delusion doesn't feel as kind once it becomes clear there has to be a limit, as the other person has already been lulled into a false sense of reality by people treating them like they're too fragile to handle the truth. So the actual hard barriers they face to being treated as the opposite sex (toilets or sports, for example) hit even harder as everyone has played along with them up until that point.

It's like when a boy is treated as a girl by the school for several years and then wants to play sport, and the parents say "she just wants to play sport". The adults can see the inevitability of this issue, and the only option the parents feel they have at that point is to make good on the promise they made to their child by pressuring everyone else to continue to play along.

I thought I was being kind using people's requested pronouns but now I see it was probably quite cruel to do so in many cases.

Apollo441 · 24/06/2023 10:14

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:38

GI is as WORIADS as most religions. In most democratic societies participation or belief in any religion cannot be enforced upon people. This is one of the concerns about enshrining GI beliefs in law.

Any religion that sterilises children should be subject to criticism. Why should GI be any different to a religion that practised FGM?

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 09:50

Students don’t want to be compelled

It's not just students. I am dreading being told I must call a boy "she".

ResisterRex · 24/06/2023 09:50

Not England but the Isle of Man:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/23/ballakermeen-high-school-isle-of-man-gender-self-id-guide/

School hits children with ‘political propaganda’ on gender self-ID

"Secondary school children have been told that gender self-identificationn_ is a “major step forward”.

Ballakermeen High School, one of five schools for pupils aged 11 to 16 on the Isle of Man, published an “LGBTQ+ newsletter” on its website, which was backed by two teachers.
The four-page guide featured a colour-coded map showing “how human rights-compliant legal gender recognition procedures are in Europe and Central Asia”.
Countries with a dark red shade allowed full self-determination of gender, while those with lighter shades required a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Those not shaded, including the UK, did not allow self-identification at all.
But students were told: “The darker the colour, the better!”"

And:

"... the guide at Ballakermeen High School, in Douglas, praised Switzerland, Norway, Belgium, and Ireland for allowing transgender people to “legally switch genders by simply declaring they are male or female”.
The guide, from May 2022, appeared to endorse claims from the controversial LGBT+ charity Stonewall, telling pupils: “In the UK, activist groups such as Stonewall say legal self-identification would be a major step forward in the fight for transgender rights.
“They argue that forcing transgender peoplee_ to prove to doctors that their gender identity is real is invasive and humiliating.”
School ‘showing no understanding’
The guide was criticised by Safe Schools Alliance, a group of parents and teachers focused on safeguarding.
Tanya Carter, from the group, said: “We are disturbed to see yet more political propaganda being aimed at children by their schools.
“This school is showing absolutely no understanding about the conflict between ‘trans’ demands for self-ID and the rights of women and girls, particularly those who are same-sex attracted.”"

OP posts:
SunnyEgg · 24/06/2023 09:37

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 09:26

@PomegranateOfPersephone

100% agree.

I do too.

Plus the girls’ recording has changed the situation.

You can state there are only two sexes and you can’t change sex in class and not be met with coercive tactics, such as despicable or leave the school. Any number of students could state this.

The social part only works if you beat out any element of biological reality.

It would be strange to have a student state this and then punished for using the wrong pronoun.

Students don’t want to be compelled and if they are then expect more letters and recordings.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 09:26

@PomegranateOfPersephone

100% agree.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 09:05

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:19

But 'Jane' will believe he is being bullied.

Then teachers will need to explain that it isn’t bullying, children who are using correct sex pronouns are simply reflecting their sex based understanding of the world. If however they threaten or insult Jane, damage Jane’s property, call Jane names, physically assault Jane etc that would constitute bullying.

There must be a definition of bullying which doesn’t include pretending to share someone’s beliefs.

Ironically if gender identity wasn’t being forced on people by such authoritarian means and didn’t include people using opposite sex spaces and services then I think more people probably would play the pronoun game to be polite.

Being kind and polite come from having the free choice to be neither with limited consequences.

No one is being kind or polite when they don’t have the choice because they will lose their job, or be convicted of a hate crime, that is just complying with rules imposed by coercive measures.

LonginesPrime · 24/06/2023 09:00

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:34

If parent and child decide to do this no bullying can take place but pronouns are not compelled for others and boys are not in girls change rooms or sports etc

But in that case, would the child have "socially transitioned"?

Furthermore, would social transition under those conditions even meet whatever psychological needs are driving the child's wish to be someone else in the first place?

I feel like setting these kinds of boundaries is not only beneficial to the people around the trans kid who constitute their social world, but it would also remove the appeal of the magical fantasy element of social transition for children considering it, which might prevent children wrongly believing they can actually change sex.

You only have to listen to detransitioners saying "and I've realised I can never actually be the opposite sex" after the hormones and surgery, which was a huge revelation to them after having been sold the idea that everyone must validate their new identity or they'll be in serious trouble.

Trans people who clearly don't "pass" often talk about how exhausting it is to be trans and how much constant work it takes to maintain their image in order to "pass" and I think some of them genuinely believe they are passing as the opposite sex when in reality society has been groomed to pretend they pass. It doesn't do children (or adults) any favours in the long run.

IncomingTraffic · 24/06/2023 08:56

I think that if there’s to be any ‘transition’ - social or otherwise, we have to agree that this is a medical condition and - in a properly evidence-based way, if the evidence suggests this actually works as treatment/management - that the treatment requires the world to make ‘reasonable adjustments’ in terms of playing along. That doesn’t necessarily mean getting to use opposite sex facilities, because of the ‘reasonable’ bit. It may be asking people to use different pronouns, as an adjustment.

If it’s a belief, then it is utterly unacceptable to expect the whole world to orient themselves and their behaviour to suit it. That includes preferred pronouns. No one needs to play along with it ‘validate’ your beliefs.

(as an aside, I hate the term ‘validate’. I work in a field where it regularly comes up in relation to the research process. And I want to stamp my foot and say ‘no. You’re not ‘validating’ anything. The paradigm you’re using is falsification. You just know that you haven’t demonstrated it’s wrong and can feel sufficiently confident on that basis. Getting some stakeholders to agree doesn’t prove validity).

rabbitwoman · 24/06/2023 08:41

My LEA obviously has a gender critical person in a very influential position - we had transgender schools guidance sent out to us in September, with transgender trend, sex matters and the safe schools alliance in the acknowledgements. It's really wise and fair and even handed.

It states that pronouns and names etc should not be changed without parental consent. It states that children should not be compelled to use counter intuitive language, and they cannot be punished for not doing it. Any sign of gender incongruence should be flagged as a safeguarding issue.

When it comes to socially transitioning, it's not necessarily the teachers but the older students who are most complicit. Prefects, mentors, sixth formers who have set up the rainbow clubs and run the Pride campaigns etc can be very militant. But as soon as the message gets out that you don't have to go along with this if you don't want to, and the school will support you, then believe me, many many more kids will be speaking out.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:38

GI is as WORIADS as most religions. In most democratic societies participation or belief in any religion cannot be enforced upon people. This is one of the concerns about enshrining GI beliefs in law.

ResisterRex · 24/06/2023 08:35

But they've never pressed for GI to be a belief, intriguingly. They want it to be a fact.

OP posts:
HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:34

If parent and child decide to do this no bullying can take place but pronouns are not compelled for others and boys are not in girls change rooms or sports etc

But in that case, would the child have "socially transitioned"?

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:32

Yes that's the crux of the issue. And why I had issues with Maya's ruling. As it could mean than GI is a belief.

I wondered about this too. Would GI pass the WORIADS test?

MadamPickle · 24/06/2023 08:26

I would like it to be made clear that 'Jane' is not allowed to bully other children who don't think that 'Jane' is the opposite sex either directly or by trying to get them into trouble with members of staff, and that schools are not to force other children to pretend that 'Jane' has changed sex and in fact never was the sex (or name) that they all knew them by at primary school.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:23

I don't disagree BTW. JKR summed it up perfectly: Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. ^ Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?^ Nobody should be mistreated for being different, and that includes the boy who wants to be called Jane and/or wear a dress at school. But it needs to be presented that way, as a choice not as a belief.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:19

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 07:30

If it is recognised as a belief, “Jane” gets called Jane and bullying Jane for believing in gender identity is not permitted however no children or staff are compelled to enter into the belief with Jane by using wrong sex pronouns and changing rooms, toilets, PE, sleeping arrangements on trips are strictly sex based.

Possibly Jane gets a separate place to change etc if that is workable.

But 'Jane' will believe he is being bullied.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 08:11

IncomingTraffic · 24/06/2023 07:44

i suspect she’s worried about the Tory thing about ‘not interfering within the family’.

But actually, the sensible line on ‘social transition’ would be that schools only participate in this if it’s being done under medical supervision and with a letter from the relevant specialist to support this. Maybe require it to be part of the EHCP process(with additional resources provided for EHCPs, so this doesn’t make things even worse for children with SEND).

Although the TRAs would be livid at it being viewed that way.

I agree, if we as a society decide that it is a medical condition this should be the way that is handled.

No the TRAs won’t be happy. Their goal is that their beliefs are imposed on all of us and that society is based around subjective gender identity instead of objective sex. The work we have to do is finding a balance between the rights of those who believe in gender identity or who have a diagnosis of it (but I think we are a long way from a clear medical definitions) and those who don’t believe in it.

Sex is really the only logical way to organise society because it is objectively immutable and observable.

Gender identity can’t be pinned down in the same way.

WarriorN · 24/06/2023 07:58

Yes that's the crux of the issue. And why I had issues with Maya's ruling. As it could mean than GI is a belief.

Regarding children It must be a diagnosis.

I think some thing that changing a name and a pronoun is just like dressing up, getting a hair style etc.

Pronouns are anatomically linked. The words woman or man or boy or girl are anatomical terms. Children cannot transition legally.

The "propose to" part of the EA is problematic here. It was written at a time when it was very rare for children to be into all this.