Pride Month: Workplace have asked for anonymous feedback on "how can we be more inclusive?"

If someone I'm meeting for the first time wants to tell me their chosen pronouns, in a situation of polite and reciprocal social contract I'm fine with that. I may use them, I may use their name, I'll certainly avoid intentionally using pronouns they themselves find offensive.

I do not want to be required to chant the Hail Mary or be named a sinner when I'm there to do a job. It would not be appropriate for me to go round the table and demand to know if each person accepts Christ as their saviour with obvious disdain, social consequences and possibly pressure and disciplinary actions for the wrong answer that they have another faith or are atheist. People's politics and faiths need to stay out of other people's faces.

This.

I think you need counselling not to tell the truth, but to be guided into an understanding of the concept of gender and how that presents within your identity.

Just catching up. How sinister is that sentence?

yes, this is rather important. It is not personal, but I don’t buy into this dogma at all.

I was a bit lippy with my jog on mate earlier in the thread, though it was not directed at any poster, but at «pronoun people» in general.

And I applaud the poster who answered this call for inclusivity by adressing real disabilities and giving suggestions for how these disabilities can be better accomodated; often simply by not hogging their designated spaces when you are not disabled.

Sorry that was @turbonerd that pointed out that calling her "missy" isn't comparable to calling a man identifying as a woman or "non binary" (a concept which means whatever the self identifier decides it means) the correct sex based pronoun "he". It's not personal, I just disbelieve in your religion and I politely decline to participate in its ceremonies and worship.

You're making a lot of false analogies @HadalyEve. As @BellaAmorosa says making up silly minimising names for someone isn't the same as using the correct pronouns based on sex. As a non believer in their religion, I'd like to opt out of it, thanks.

Excellent points made by those pointing that other characteristics or vulnerabilities do not seem to get the same care and attention.

@HadalyEve
I won't add to the responses of PPs regarding compelled speech - they've said it all.
I note that you appear to agree that compelled speech is a bad thing. So that is a step forward for you.

I'm just waiting this one out as a fad that will go away, like most instances of corporate mutual virtue-signalling.

This one is a little different as it requires me to imply i believe something I don't, and actively damages the language environment for those with communication barriers. Multiple requests to change the environment for people with hearing loss in - get this - a waiting room for the AUDIOLOGY dept have been ignored. But not this.

Essentially, stating preferred pronouns appears cost free, hence why junior EDI staff love to introduce it. But it's not cost free to me.

“None” is a perfectly acceptable pronoun in itself. But if anyone were to ask me directly what my pronouns were, I’d tell them not to be silly. Life is too short for this nonsense.

There will be plenty of companies- stuffed with white, well educated people with privilege coming out of their ears (plus a pay gap, guess where?) clapping themselves on the back for being inclusive. Hurrah for diversity!

A pronoun is not a form of adress @HadalyEve . It is not comparable. It is a different function of the language alltogether. Pronouns are how you speak about people, granted sometimes when they are present too. I have already stated that in such a case, if people are asking that I use pronouns that do not go with their sex, I will use their names.

If you call me Missy, or Comrade or Ms: those are titles and not my name. You can call me that if you like, of course, and then see how I respond. That goes for the pronouns too; people might get upset or stroppy if I don’t want to use «their» pronouns, and I will have to deal with that as and when.
I will have to explain that I disagree with people trying to decide which pronouns to use about them for two reasons: clarity of language and language reflecting reality.

I know it is possible to lie. But to lie about someones sex (or non-sex, even though that is impossible) has the potential to affect me directly in so many ways that I have concluded I don’t want to anymore.

I will still be kind towards transpeople I meet, but if referring to them by name is an affront to them then I can’t help that.
It makes things really difficult, and it curtails how I speak enough. I can’t talk about sports. I can’t talk about history. I even had to shut up about the plight of women and children in Afghanistan, because it only affects biological girls and women, and the fledging TW could not tolerate hearing about that.

It is not just the pronouns, you see. I also must agree TWAW, that TW should be in women’s sport, in hospitals, in prisons, in our Open plan changing rooms to the swimming pool and in the sauna.
I must agree not to know the sex of my non verbal dd’s carers. She is extremely vulnerable. To say men wouldn’t lie to gain easy access to her would be a BIG lie, and we have already seen that men DO lie to have access to victims for sexual exploitation.

And that’s where the whole thing falls apart.

Thats hilarious

Counselling for 'struggling with gender'

I have, over many years struggled with my spirituality, I really dont know if I identify more with being a Leo or a Virgo, being born on the cusp, Ive never really been one way or the other, its a struggle I have to live with, I do need counselling

You don’t have to believe in something to respect others belief in it. If you want people to respect your beliefs, you should respect theirs.

I agree with your first sentence.

Your second sentence, to me, gets to the root of the issue. If people who believe in Gender Identity Ideology want me to respect that, they also have to respect my LACK of belief in the same thing.

So demanding the use of pronouns that don't reflect one's sex is not mutually respectful.

How would it go down, do you think, if Sam said his preferred pronouns for himself were she/hers and the response was 'Well, MY preferred pronouns for you based on my perception of you (your sex) are he/his, so I'll continue to use those'

Thankfully, I am retired, but I used to work in a large NHS hospital employing literally thousands of people. It would be beyond ridiculous to try and remember several thousand self indulgent narcissistic pronoun variations of one’s colleagues, let alone mangle English grammar to use them.
Pronouns are sex based, not personality or gender stereotype based. Males are designated he, whatever state of bodily reality denial they are in. One cannot identify out of one’s physical existence and expect others to play along.

Why is inclusion and diversity only ever seen in terms of trans
What about racism, disability access, people with learning needs, sex, social class

I object to being describe or misgendered if you like as a cis woman and I certainly would object to being asked my pronouns in a meeting when its absolutely irrelevent because no ones going to be calling me she/her while they're talking to me at the meeting, they're going to be using my name

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not convinced that 'respect' is the same as 'go along with'.

For example Muslims when they say the name Muhammed tend to (always?) add 'peace be upon him'.
Does that meant that I as a non-Muslim have to do likewise, or can I just respect their wish to do so?

If a vegetarian doesn't want to eat meat because they think it is cruel, then they don't have to, but if we go out for a meal together, does that mean I have to not choose the beef lasagne?

This is where the 'gender belief' system seems so different from other beliefs. It requires others to act as if they believe too. Even though it is confusing for the very young, the very old, ND people, those with learning difficulties who can't adapt quickly. It can be very hard for some who already have limited expression skills to do the mental gymnastics over pronouns whilst trying to formulate their content.

Hmmm. No. I can't respect a belief which is clearly nonsensical. There is no account of personal gender which does not pop on the slightest investigation. I can, and do, respect peoples right to have a belief, but that doesn't mean I will respect the belief itself.

Shades of Reg, Judith and Loretta there!

You don’t have to believe in something to respect others belief in it. If you want people to respect your beliefs, you should respect theirs.

So it’s not compelled speech. You don’t have to address people by the pronouns they prefer, but the natural consequences of that is going to be lack of respect for your beliefs.

Righty oh Missy Nerd.
Oh don’t like your form of address? Well youse don’t get yin preferred form of address Comrade Turbo or Ms Nerd or pronouns. If that offends youse, too bad, youse can’t “compel my speech” as apparently that is what we are calling a simple request for polite address.

Id be tempted to write, all our literature should be available in every single language, including Klingon, so that no one feels excluded...!

No. No-one should be referred to by the pronouns they prefer themselves.
They have names. If they don’t like their names they can change them.

Pronouns are a function in language.
Not a pick n mix on how you feel today.

It is vair pop to be a he Mon-Wedn, a she Thurs-Sat and nb on Sundays. Not my job to keep track of your mental gymnastics mate. I will use whatever pronouns I see fit (sex based) when talking about you. If you are there and become upset I’ll use your name. If I remember it.
Good luck with your meltdown if you find that offensive. I find your attempt at compelling my speech a lot more offensive, I can assure you.

And while we’re at it, I’ve been on many, many (often useless) training courses, and at no point has ANYONE ever been asked to disclose whether they have disabilities- which would be useful for the people who are hard of hearing and need to see people’s mouths to hear what has been said, for anyone with autism who may feel uncomfortable with eye contact or any other disability that might want to feel safe and included as well despite the fact that over the years I have worked with far more people with disabilities than gender issues. Although how everyone identifying as able bodied actually helps disabled people I don’t know.

I'm laughing at @HadalyEve recommending counseling!

That's a Friday night giggle for sure.

I have attended hundreds of meetings / courses where we have to introduce ourselves. All we have been asked is to say our name and our role. Ive never been asked my sexuality, marital status or religion. Never. It absolutely is not necessary to ask someone’s ‘pronouns’ to virtue signal their chosen ‘gender’. It’s narcissistic at best…

@HadalyEve
What compelled speech? Genuinely do not know what you are on about.

Please don't be disingenuous. Using preferred rather than sex-based pronouns when you don't want to and don't believe in GI ideology, but have to at the behest of your employer or for fear of repercussions = compelled speech.

No one is being silenced by not being asked their pronouns in a meeting 🤣 just like I’m not being silenced by not being asked if I eat meat, or drink alcohol, or what my marital status is or if I have a disability.

If meeting introductions go -
“I’m A. Hi. “
”I’m B. Hello.”
”I’m C and my pronouns are they/them. Hello.”
And C is not ushered out of the room for strong words then what’s the problem? Or if C just says “actually, I’m Them” when spoken of.