Pride Month: Workplace have asked for anonymous feedback on "how can we be more inclusive?"

Ah! I now see why @HadalyEve said 'i believe you' - they have misread my post and are now (I assume sincerely but incorrectly) claiming I said they "hat I might think they weren’t telling the truth". I didn't - I said the following, which they presumably misread:

The fact that you believe someone might need counselling to truthfully answer a question suggests that maybe the question isn't as straightforward as you keep saying?

My point was. I care about answering the question 'what are your pronouns' truthfully and honestly, which involves understanding what the question is asking.

You said I need counselling if I don't understand what gender is, and some people answer the pronouns question with a gender-related answer, so as I said there is a big risk of misinformation.

All I was asking for is a definition of gender identity that is clear enough for me to ascertain what mine is, and @HadalyEve can't provide one, yet claims it's both inconsequential and important enough to require the question from everyone.

Brilliant!

The second paragraph is particularly hilarious. What would I recommend for someone who is baffled by the undefined and indefinable concept of gender?

Well they’re 100% sane. No recommendations required.

Later posters:

Can you define the the undefined and indefinable concept of gender then please?

Follower of the one true faith:

This mysical concept is beyond my powers to define. Your faith in the gods of identity and gender are for you to explore. You must find a guru to help you to define them for yourself.

PPs haven’t really made a case as to why they should be able to impose pronouns of their choice on others.

I thought you were sockpuppeting on both sides of this debate for a second before I realised you meant that you feel GC people are imposing pronouns on trans people rather than the other way round.

There no real justification to not only own your pronouns, but to also own the pronouns of everyone else you meet.

No-one owns pronouns used to describe to them any more than they own the adjectives people use to describe them.

Like many nowadays, I tend to substitute someone's name each time I refer to them if I think they might be sensitive about their pronouns. I'm autistic and it's a much easier for me to remember a specific name attached to a specific person than to navigate the mental gymnastics involved in recalling what that person's latest conception of their own inner feelings are. It's hard enough for me to keep track of people's emotional states about stuff that enables me to do my job, so I don't have the spare energy to expend on keeping track of every colleague's current sense of self, as that requires a level of working memory that I need to save for my actual job.

In other words, we only own our pronouns, we do not own others pronouns.

Nobody owns pronouns, FGS . That sentence makes no sense at all.

@TeenDivided
Can you define gender for me not using stereotypes or reference to sex?
...
Or is gender really a collection of personality traits and dress style?

Why should we care?

Precisely. A person's gender - whatever it is - only matters to the individual, or possibly his or her loved ones. It has no wider significance - no relevance to sporting categories, ability to do a job, etc. It's utterly trivial to everyone else. Yet society is supposed to go into upheaval for this nebulous self-contradictory nonsensical idea that no-one can objectively detect, locate or define.

@HadalyEve
I believe that males claiming to be women are not women. Are you prepared to add that to your posts in order to respect my beliefs, in the sense you use "respect"? You can write TWANW, if the whole phrase is too long.

@HadalyEve Can you define gender for me not using stereotypes or reference to sex?

Presumably you can do better than 'a woman who is anyone who feels they are' ? I mean that's not a good enough definition for deciding on prison segregation for a start is it?

Or is gender really a collection of personality traits and dress style?

Why should we care?

Ignore & disrespect their beliefs in order to impose your beliefs on to them.

I don't respect workplace pronouners.

The beliefs indicated by being a workplace pronouner are not worth respecting, quite the opposite in fact, the sooner it gets dropped the better to save them the embarrassment of looking gullible.

@HadalyEve
PPs have dealt with the silly notion that people "own" pronouns.

I am refusing to use ideological, ungrammatical language in defiance of people like you. I am not claiming ownership of pronouns or any other part of speech, nor am I forcing anyone to use compelled speech of my choice. English grammar operates as it has always operated - pronouns are sex-based. Everybody follows the same rules of grammar. You might as well claim that using English words when speaking English is "compelled speech".

Pronouns don't belong to anyone. They're just a part of grammar.

Indeed. They're not "your pronouns" they're the grammatical term for addressing a person of your sex. Absent gender ideology there is zero to argue about. I find this need to compel belief and speech concerning.

No, nobody owns pronouns at all.

Until very recently, the way the English language worked was that we used masculine third person pronouns for male people and feminine third person pronouns for female people, and the singular "they" when talking about an unspecific person or someone whose sex is unknown.

What gender ideologues want to do is force everyone to use third person pronouns in a different way, to signal that we agree or are willing to pretend to agree that a male person is female, or a female person is male, or someone is neither male nor female.

It really is the equivalent of expecting atheists to say the Hail Mary in order not to upset Catholics. I don't see why anyone should be expected to do it. Especially when their polite pretence is then taken to mean consent for men in women's spaces and sports.

I think that if you believe pronouns are based on sex, then that’s great.

Pronouns are entirely based on a person's sex, not a dubious, disputed ideological concept which has only existed for five minutes. Hope this helps.

Pronouns don't belong to anyone. They're just a part of grammar.

The question is “what are your pronouns”?

No, I'm afraid that doesn't explain anything.

"What are your verbs?" isn't evidence for people "having verbs", now is it?

Huh?

Not asking people to state "their pronouns" (i.e. assuming by default that everyone has preferred pronouns and is happy to share them) isn't excluding trans and non binary people in any way. They (and anyone else) are still free to state their pronouns if they wish to do so.

What it actually is, is creating a more inclusive and less threatening environment for anyone who doesn't believe in gender ideology, and indeed for any person questioning their gender identity who isn't ready to share that with the whole class just yet.

Sorry? Are you saying you think I am a therapist? I assure you, I am not.

The question is “what are your pronouns”?

The “your” is a possessive determiner in English which indicates ownership of the noun directly following “pronouns”

Similar to “what is your name”?

Who do pronouns/names belong to if not to the person they are being used to refer to?

Sorry, but I can’t explore your questions pertaining to your identity and your gender. I’m not a therapist, and this would go into some very personal self-exploration of your psyche which I don’t have the right to look into.

Hahaha.

You almost had me fooled for a while.

Sorry, but I can’t explore your questions pertaining to your identity and your gender. I’m not a therapist, and this would go into some very personal self-exploration of your psyche which I don’t have the right to look into. You need someone with whom you have a trust bond and a professional code of ethics that includes patient confidentiality.

The only other thing would be to massively over generalise and stereotype commonalities in gender and gender identity which would be more harmful than helpful.

Theres a reason why I’ve told my DC that the “what’s my gender” online quizzes and forums (even MN) cannot be used for this purpose and any answers anyone feeds you is likely to be dangerous rubbish - I.e you like legos, hate dresses, love the colour blue and have short hair therefore you are a transman.

This sort of self discovery requires professional guidance.

PPs haven’t really made a case as to why they should be able to impose pronouns of their choice on others. There no real justification to not only own your pronouns, but to also own the pronouns of everyone else you meet.

Where do you get this idea that a person "owns their own pronouns"?

It’s not a step forward for me, as I’ve always been against compelled speech.

PPs haven’t really made a case as to why they should be able to impose pronouns of their choice on others. There no real justification to not only own your pronouns, but to also own the pronouns of everyone else you meet.

Your rights end where another’s rights begin.

I still do not agree that everyone just respecting & using each others pronouns regardless of the belief is ‘compelling speech.’ It’s only asking for basic courtesy to address a person by the pronouns they have chosen for themselves.

What else would you suggest for someone in the same situation? Someone is baffled and struggling with the concept of gender and unsure as to how it may or may not play a part in their identity?

Anyone with any sense is "baffled" because no one who professes to understand it will explain what they think it means.

I would suggest it would be a good start if someone would try. Do you fancy having a go?

Maybe define gender in terms that aren't just stereotypes or muddled up with sex?

I think that if you believe pronouns are based on sex, then that’s great. Good for you, you can have your pronouns based on your sex. But, where compelling speech comes in is when you decide what another’s persons pronouns should be, and ignore & disrespect their beliefs in order to impose your beliefs on to them.

In other words, we only own our pronouns, we do not own others pronouns. If you want others to use the pronouns for you that you want, which would be based on your sex, then tit for tat, you should likewise give others the same courtesy and call them by the pronouns they have chosen for themselves based on their beliefs.

Not at all when taken in context. The person said they didn’t know if they had a gender or even what gender is, so I suggested counselling. They then claimed that I might think they weren’t telling the truth, so I was reassuring them that no I believed they were telling the truth when they said they didn’t know if they had a gender or even what gender is.

What else would you suggest for someone in the same situation? Someone is baffled and struggling with the concept of gender and unsure as to how it may or may not play a part in their identity?