Pride Month: Workplace have asked for anonymous feedback on "how can we be more inclusive?"

MinorDisaster · 11/05/2024 21:17

@NitroNine I hate it when organisations add random unnecessary attachments - it's so time-wasting when you open them in error. Rainbows are doubly unnecessary.

NitroNine · 11/05/2024 21:09

@MinorDisaster
One of the NHS departments responsible for my care have, for reasons I cannot fathom, the rainbow NHS logo thingy as an attachment to all their emails. Which is spectacularly unhelpful when you want to find the email from them with the actual real attachment[s] on. They’re part of the Trust who Baroness Nicholson was getting cross with on TwiX a couple of weeks ago, naturally 🫤.

MinorDisaster · 11/05/2024 19:43

JFDIYOLO · 16/06/2023 01:20

Overheard conversation at work today with one colleague I don't really know ending by muttering 'bloody pronouns …' I muttered 'absolutely' and we grinned at each other.

Our org is Stonewall-led 🙄, heads-of do pronouns in email sign offs and we are being 'encouraged' to put the Pride flag in our sign offs and Teams backgrounds.

I am ignoring the lot.

I wish I was still working for a captured organisation. No I don't, it was just that talk about flags.

Minor Disaster
(ooh/aargh) 🏴‍☠️

JFDIYOLO · 11/05/2024 14:53

How to be more inclusive at work?:

Stress the importance of preserving single sex space to be inclusive of women who require them for safety, privacy, dignity, comfort, religious reasons, PTSD from previous experiences etc. And for men too who prefer the privacy, knowing they won't be embarrassed, either.

And keep opportunities exclusively for women exclusive, especially if you're in a male dominated field. This allows inclusion for women to achieve and succeed where they might otherwise not have the chance members of the male sex have.

And provide PPE that fits and protects the female body. We aren't smaller men.

Understand that recent rulings such as Forstater's mean that employers can't discriminate for gender critical beliefs.

Examine hiring, promotion, leadership, role allocation etc policies and practices - are there sexist biases in play?

Runor · 09/05/2024 15:04

Wow, Dineasair, you’ve been trawling the archives!

However, it did help me realise why I’m so uncomfortable with being asked to state pronouns…..

Stating pronouns was started as a way to declare allyship with trans people.

I have no issue with how anyone wants to present themselves, and I don’t think that anyone should be obliged to take on a set of behaviours, preferences and characteristics because of their sex. However, we have a few areas in society (spaces, sports, services) which are, for good reason, segregated by sex. Unfortunately, trans allyship now seems to require that those areas are opened to transwomen, and that is something I see causing a great deal of harm. I don’t want to imply I support that harm by using opposite sex pronouns

Dineasair · 09/05/2024 13:26

NoNever · 08/06/2023 15:58

Asking for pronouns is not polite. It’s an aggressive forcing of trans ideology in the workplace meant to let everyone know that people who don’t play along will face consequences.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

JFDIYOLO · 16/06/2023 01:20

Overheard conversation at work today with one colleague I don't really know ending by muttering 'bloody pronouns …' I muttered 'absolutely' and we grinned at each other.

Our org is Stonewall-led 🙄, heads-of do pronouns in email sign offs and we are being 'encouraged' to put the Pride flag in our sign offs and Teams backgrounds.

I am ignoring the lot.

agent765 · 15/06/2023 22:47

I might be giving my age away here but how on earth did we manage before pronouns were "required"?

I hope to live long enough to see this nonsense being discussed as a phase that people grew out of.

BellaAmorosa · 14/06/2023 13:50

Bornin1989 · 14/06/2023 12:00

Well, an interesting update - probably outing if anyone from the company are on here (and reading this!) but as we're not many people, I'm hoping not.

Again for pride month, our company have posted an interview with a lesbian staff member on our internal staff newsletter, about her association with pride. In the interview they asked her what she thought of pronouns in e-mail signatures (brave!), and she said essentially she doesn't want "two words" to define her, and she's all for it as long as it isn't made mandatory. ❤

Another GC woman in our midst!

Also signals to me that the company are open to thinking, and publishing, thoughts that aren't just related to Gender Identity ideology.

That sounds hopeful.

Musomama1 · 14/06/2023 13:27

HadalyEve · 08/06/2023 15:17

How is it forced? Asking pronouns is polite and no one is forced to respond with a pronoun. As I put in my post, anyone is usually (or should be) free to decline to share their pronouns.

Since you are concerned that some trans/nb people might not want to share pronouns, not just those with gender critical beliefs, how is it outing anyone? If the company at a meeting says “introduce yourself and your pronouns if you so wish” and Sam says “I’m Sam, no pronouns”, then you don’t know if it’s a gender critical Sam OR a nonbinary Sam who’s not yet decided or comfortable enough to out themselves as nb.

So no one is outed as one or the other by the pronoun thing any more than being asked are you Ms, Miss or Mrs outs your marital status.

Show quote history

I disagree. In the hypothetical meeting you'd never say, please state your name and religion if you like.

It assumes everyone follows a religion, or at least most people .

Stating pronouns is of course signifying a belief in gender ideology. It's not the norm for everyone.

Original poster

Bornin1989 · 14/06/2023 12:00

Well, an interesting update - probably outing if anyone from the company are on here (and reading this!) but as we're not many people, I'm hoping not.

Again for pride month, our company have posted an interview with a lesbian staff member on our internal staff newsletter, about her association with pride. In the interview they asked her what she thought of pronouns in e-mail signatures (brave!), and she said essentially she doesn't want "two words" to define her, and she's all for it as long as it isn't made mandatory. ❤

Another GC woman in our midst!

Also signals to me that the company are open to thinking, and publishing, thoughts that aren't just related to Gender Identity ideology.

OP posts:

crunchermuncher · 12/06/2023 22:54

Bornin1989 · 12/06/2023 09:36

I'm yet to read the responses fully after a busy weekend, it's definitely been an interesting skim so far.

Just to clarify - I'm not asking to ban asking for pronouns, I'm just requesting we stop doing it staff meetings - if someone wants to ask someone else face-to-face, crack on. You are also free to add your pronouns to an e-mail signature if you do so wish, it's not like I'm advocating for removing that (although I would not advocate for compulsory pronoun statements).

To those that feel asking pronouns in a meeting is more inclusive, then why aren't we saying to people "and what reasonable adjustments can we make to help you in your job"? There will no doubt be more people this is applicable to than are trans/nonbinary... Maybe it's because that information is personal and for the person to share with HR, or share on a more individual basis than in an entire company meeting. It doesn't matter whether you can decline to answer or not, the mere question is uncomfortable for many.

I found the apparent deliberate misunderstanding of the OP weird and confusing - why can't people ask/ share pronouns in 1-2-1 conversations? It was simply the idea of going round the room expecting people to share in a big meeting that OP took exception to. No one is being banned from asking/ telling. What hyperbolic exaggeration!

FWIW I would hate this, because I wouldn't know how to respond, because I think it's bollocks. I don't need counseling to explore how the bollocks relate to me, lifes too short and i just don't see any point.

This wouldn't stop me from using someone's preferred pronouns if they had
a) told me and
b) I remembered (unlikely) and
c) they hadn't pissed me off by getting on my case in a holier than thou kind of way about it!

crunchermuncher · 12/06/2023 22:46

uglyswan · 12/06/2023 10:26

This has actually happened to me! I just left my pronouns off my badge at a conference weekend, and a complete stranger welcomed me as a fellow member of the "non-binary no-pronoun gang" and was visibly disappointed to be told, "Sorry, no, I just don't care".

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Brilliant @uglyswan 👏

This thread is all kinds of illogical bonkers. It's like bad argument bingo.

uglyswan · 12/06/2023 10:26

CaptainWarbeck · 12/06/2023 05:00

Also finding this suggestion confusing. If I introduce myself with 'My name is Warbeck, no pronouns', couldn't that potentially be taken as 'do not use pronouns for me' - so no he/she/they at all. More linguistic gymnastics!

Or does 'no pronouns' = call me by my blindingly obvious sex-based pronouns. But I thought we couldn't assume this because there's apparently no way to tell...

Also, the suggestion to go for counselling to explore gender is like being told to go for counselling to gain a better understanding of astrology. I don't believe in it. I 'struggle' with astrology in that sense. In no way would it be helpful to my life to brainstorm my lack of belief in astrology/gender-woo.

This has actually happened to me! I just left my pronouns off my badge at a conference weekend, and a complete stranger welcomed me as a fellow member of the "non-binary no-pronoun gang" and was visibly disappointed to be told, "Sorry, no, I just don't care".

Original poster

Bornin1989 · 12/06/2023 10:18

(and just because you can ask "what are your pronouns", doesn't mean they then automatically become yours... I can't think of anything else that entitles you to ownership just because someone else refers to it as "yours")

OP posts:

Original poster

Bornin1989 · 12/06/2023 10:15

My 2p on the "ownership of pronouns"... If anyone owns pronouns, it's the other people talking about you, given they're the ones using them 100% of the time.

Case in point; I just referred to the "other people talking about you" as "they", and "they" had no choice over how I referred to them collectively. I hope I didn't offend anyone 😇

OP posts:

Original poster

Bornin1989 · 12/06/2023 09:36

I'm yet to read the responses fully after a busy weekend, it's definitely been an interesting skim so far.

Just to clarify - I'm not asking to ban asking for pronouns, I'm just requesting we stop doing it staff meetings - if someone wants to ask someone else face-to-face, crack on. You are also free to add your pronouns to an e-mail signature if you do so wish, it's not like I'm advocating for removing that (although I would not advocate for compulsory pronoun statements).

To those that feel asking pronouns in a meeting is more inclusive, then why aren't we saying to people "and what reasonable adjustments can we make to help you in your job"? There will no doubt be more people this is applicable to than are trans/nonbinary... Maybe it's because that information is personal and for the person to share with HR, or share on a more individual basis than in an entire company meeting. It doesn't matter whether you can decline to answer or not, the mere question is uncomfortable for many.

OP posts:

Snowtrails · 12/06/2023 08:21

HadalyEve · 08/06/2023 15:03

So, you asked them to be more inclusive by excluding trans and nonbinary people?
“I….asked them to stop asking people's pronouns in company meetings.”

You know with gender critical being recognised as a philosophical belief, that you can decline to share your pronouns, but that doesn’t mean you get to impose your beliefs on others and stop them asking for others pronouns?

But there are only two pronouns and they correspond to the person's sex. There are only two sexes. Pronouns have got nothing to do with how you're feeling

Helleofabore · 12/06/2023 08:18

Well this thread has had some gems. Counselling to work out whether you have a gender? You have to be fucking joking. As others have pointed out, would the same poster recommend going to counselling to workout if a person was atheist or not.

And the English language and its rules is a ‘shared’ language. It is not owned by anyone. You don’t own the words that describe you or anyone else. You use a commonly understood and defined framework to communicate accurately.

‘owning’ pronouns? I am sure that some people who are fully immersed in their own individualism feel they can ‘own’ the words that describe them. It must be very worrisome to realise that in reality, language never has worked like that unless you live in a totalitarian society and others dob in those who step out of line for rehabilitation or punishment.

Owning pronouns that people use to describe you? Getting counseling for working through whether you have a gender? (Because it is so very important, of course!)

If those reading along hadn’t worked out how ideologically driven gender as a concept is before, by now reading this thread I suspect they have worked it out.

TWETMIRF · 12/06/2023 07:49

Get counselling to explore your gender = talk to a priest about your soul.

HadalyEve can't comprehend that atheists exist, let alone that they exist and are happy

CaptainWarbeck · 12/06/2023 05:00

Also finding this suggestion confusing. If I introduce myself with 'My name is Warbeck, no pronouns', couldn't that potentially be taken as 'do not use pronouns for me' - so no he/she/they at all. More linguistic gymnastics!

Or does 'no pronouns' = call me by my blindingly obvious sex-based pronouns. But I thought we couldn't assume this because there's apparently no way to tell...

Also, the suggestion to go for counselling to explore gender is like being told to go for counselling to gain a better understanding of astrology. I don't believe in it. I 'struggle' with astrology in that sense. In no way would it be helpful to my life to brainstorm my lack of belief in astrology/gender-woo.

PorcelinaV · 12/06/2023 02:47

How can they be more inclusive?

Try to get them to express support for the pegging community.

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ArabeIIaScott · 11/06/2023 13:57

borntobequiet · 10/06/2023 18:24

In other words, we only own our pronouns, we do not own others pronouns.

Nobody owns pronouns, FGS . That sentence makes no sense at all.

I've got some up on ebay right now. £5 'boy it now'.

Inamuddle36 · 11/06/2023 13:15

HadalyEve · 08/06/2023 15:17

How is it forced? Asking pronouns is polite and no one is forced to respond with a pronoun. As I put in my post, anyone is usually (or should be) free to decline to share their pronouns.

Since you are concerned that some trans/nb people might not want to share pronouns, not just those with gender critical beliefs, how is it outing anyone? If the company at a meeting says “introduce yourself and your pronouns if you so wish” and Sam says “I’m Sam, no pronouns”, then you don’t know if it’s a gender critical Sam OR a nonbinary Sam who’s not yet decided or comfortable enough to out themselves as nb.

So no one is outed as one or the other by the pronoun thing any more than being asked are you Ms, Miss or Mrs outs your marital status.

Show quote history

@HadalyEve I am confused. How can anyone have “no pronouns”? Or did you mean to say “my pronouns should be obvious to you by looking at me”?
More to the point: Asking for pronouns una meeting is not only potentially offensive, it is also useless. People rarely refer to each other in the third person in a meeting. When responding to what a colleague has said, most people would say “I agree with Sally…” not “I agree with they” or “I agree with zie” or whatever pronoun the person might have announced.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/06/2023 12:40

@HadalyEve can't provide one, yet claims it's both inconsequential and important enough to require the question from everyone.

It's a feature of these discussions.