"I don't give a shit about the scientific explanations. If they identify as a women, they get to compete in sports"

But these male athletes… they don’t ‘dominate’. They don’t over run women’s events.

https://x.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1703533662640463893?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

“Male racer Gage Martin took the win in his very first women's mountain bike race, the Land Mine Mountain Bike Classic.”

“Can you believe there's ANOTHER extremely talented male women's mountain biker? What are the chances?!”

Their very first women’s bike race! Remarkable. Care to explain this @EmiliaB71 ?

No… no over running here surely…. Just read iheartbikes timeline they are documenting this phenomenon… you know the one you cannot fucking see that is right in front of the world’s eyes now…. But hey… not fucking happening, is it?

Just a fucking moral panic isn’t it! None so fucking blind, I reckon, as those soaked in misinformation and disinformation.

it's easy to call them cheaters when in reality, all they did was follow the rules the sporting bodies set out.

Lol.

The sporting bodies captured by trans ideology and actually containing the cohort we're taking about?? Those sporting bodies?

You'd think these people had never heard of the expression marking your own homework.

Marking it, setting it and grading it, whilst it never actually leaves their own hand.

And I just cross posted with porcelina because I was too slow to finish my post...

And what prize money, Emilia?

"before you consider that a victory: where do you think the men are going to get the prize money from?"

I mean, some marathons are now giving prize money for a non-binary category. EQUAL prize money to the male and female category. For what has turned out to be for mediocre males to win. No non-binary females to win. Just male people and athletes who are so far down the results list.

https://x.com/is_a_woman/status/1703486815372546490?s=20

Here we are in the NYRR Bronx 10 miler.

The first place NB was a male athlete who finished 59th overall. The male winner ran 48.56 minutes, the female winner ran 54.38 minutes and this male athlete ran 56.04 minutes. The 3rd place winner of the NB competition was placed 217th overall. And STILL took a prize.

As expected and tirelessly explained by many experts, creation of a third NB category just gives more male people opportunity to win and it is direct discrimination against female people under the guise of 'kindness' and 'inclusion'. To clarify, the supporters of this new 'inclusivity' are now directly negatively discriminating against female people while declaring themselves the very opposite of oppressors.

So, I am not quite sure what your point about prize money is. Please explain it more clearly for us all.

EmiliaB71 has attempted to leverage a couple of fallacies here.

"I would think that given only about 1 to 1,5% of the population is gender dysphoric/transgender, it seems logical that they won't overrun cis gender women in sports."

This is the 'not many' fallacy. It relies on a couple of things. Firstly, it relies on people thinking that 'oh there are not many, so just let them in...' which feeds into the description of this group being a vulnerable minority deserving of extraordinary measures to accommodate them. In this case it is about ignoring category boundaries.

Perhaps @EmiliaB71 , you would tell us which of the following other categories that you would agree to allow boundaries to be ignored just for a few people ....

Should a sighted person compete with blind athletes if they identify as blind?

Should a 25 year old compete in the under 14’s if they identify as a child?

Should a 25 year old compete in the over 85 year old Masters category if they identify as 86 years old?

Should a professional athlete compete as a novice?

Should an athlete born in the UK with parents who are born in the UK with all the advantages of sports access and still living in the UK, compete in a sport representing Samoa and exclude a Samoan person?

Should just be a few people right.... shouldn't be any issue at all? They are just 'competing' yes?

Secondly, it is a sleight of hand. Because it is using the 'total' numbers of 'competing', when the reality is even just a few CAN overrun women's sports. As Hag mentioned, US cycling at the moment has just a 'few' males who are winning competitions, sometimes two or three in the top 4 or 5 places and setting female records.

So. Emilia's argument is actually dishonest. Because by calling for a compassionate 'there is just a few vs the huge numbers of girls and women playing sport that it is not like they will overrun the teams', it ignores the reality that those 'few' CAN cause SIGNIFICANT harm.

It has been proven that they can and have caused harm and significant injury too.

"it's easy to call them cheaters when in reality, all they did was follow the rules the sporting bodies set out."

Emilia has forgotten something important here. Emilia has infantilised the very people that they are supposedly supporting.

What adult takes advantage of competition rules to their advantage, knowing that they are competing with a known and well discussed physical advantage (and that is not including the other advantages such as better training opportunities from childhood etc either)?

So, Emilia, if an adult was presented with the opportunity to enter the categories I mentioned in this post, are they being respectful of the people those categories have been set up to protect by accepting that opportunity. Just because they can? How is that adult showing respect for those people who need their own category?

Yes, it IS cheating. The science is clear, despite your misinformation.

Didn't know that. Good point.

it seems logical that they won't overrun cis gender women in sports.

Even if correct that we aren't going to see complete domination of all women's sports, so all the podiums are routinely taken by trans, it can still be thousands and thousands of women impacted by it, and some women discouraged from taking part or not willing to share changing rooms.

That's OK because real women are still mostly on the podiums?

it's easy to call them cheaters when in reality, all they did was follow the rules the sporting bodies set out.

Because our ideas of fairness go beyond strict rule keeping. Yes, they may have followed the rules, but we recognise the rules to be unfair and politically influenced.

"Yes I was deliberately taking a performance enhancing drug, but it wasn't on the banned list yet, so I didn't cheat"

Such a person would be, imo, quite correctly viewed as a "cheater" despite the fact that they haven't broken any rules.

Now with trans athletes it's a little different maybe, as they have clearly been officially invited to take part. But we can still see unfairness that is being exploited by some people.

Jesse and Katie are great. Will take a listen.

Everyone should give this a listen. It's an absolute corker of an episode.

I'm not bothered by the science. I think the female half of the human race should be treated as equally human and not as walking therapeutic resources for male people and that's the end of it.

A whole lot of wangling about science does not make for any good reason why male people should be entitled to use women.

In the US where the college scholarship system is well established as a way for athletes from poor backgrounds to pursue their sport and get an education, the rot sets in very early. Young talented women hoping to be spotted by college scouts at state events are being scuppered by male athletes competing in local high school and regional meets so the female athletes don’t score high enough to get invited to the important events.

In further news I think the earth is flat. I don’t give a shit about the science, I am 100% right.

In further news I believe alien lizards live amongst us and eat guinea pigs, I don’t give a shit about the science, I am 100% right.

I love this and am going to adopt it as my go to discussion crushing argument for everything . I need to work on the rapid speech pattern and deadpan delivery though, if you try to make it sound as though you are willing to engage and possibly expand your theory you lose all credibility and people just laugh at you rather than accepting your superior knowledge.

Thank you so much. I missed this one! Am listening now!

Yes a rather pointed bit of information that @EmiliaB71 has missed.

And we know just how few want to have their cocks chopped off. And to be fair, I think it was a cruel restriction anyway. The IOC should have said no from the very beginning! But they had to acquiesce because they allowed some male DSD athletes in.

In what sense are you using the word 'forced'? Am I equally 'forced' to be short and mobility impaired? 'Forced' tends to be done by an active agent. Which agent do you mean here? Sexist parents maybe? It is interesting how often trans people stories have a very sexist parent in the background (e.g. Susie Green and her husband). Is that the real problem?

Language matters so please be clear about this.

Jesus, the incoherence doesn't get any better, does it?

They don't want to run as women because that reminds them that they're men???

And when they are forced to run in the correct category, they don't want to run at all and that's meant to prove they're not cheats!

This ideology is where logic goes to die.

Back on the subject of Emma Vigeland there is an interesting podcast from earlier this month from the people at 'Blocked and Reported'. One of the hosts Jesse Singal went on the Majority Report to debate with Emma over his research into trans healthcare.

It did not go well, and she essentially hung up on him when it became apparent he really knew his stuff - it's long but worth a listen.

https://www.blockedandreported.org/p/episode-181-jesse-calls-into-the#details

For anyone unfamiliar with Blocked and Reported it's US bbased podcast but they do cover quite a few of the gender debate stories from the UK as well (regularly referring to us as Terf Island!)

If some massive cheat male puts down an outstanding record in Female category, then it could be years and dozens of Female competitors that lose out on holding the WR or OR for that event. Not to mention the current record holder, who achieved that without being a massive cheat
I'm specifically thinking of Katie Ledecky who is a once-in-a-generation athlete, a legend in the sport, in any sport. And Lia Thomas the massive cheat

I'd love to learn the actual number at which it will matter than women are losing out to men. Intriguingly, the formula always seems to be [number who are losing out now] + [a lot].

Sadly, there’s enough evidence from cycling in the US that allowing TW to compete in the female category just means no women on the podium at all. In the long run, this leads to women getting no prize money and no sponsorship - bye bye women in professional sport (but obvs only once we’ve done the work towards equal media coverage and prize money for the women…)

it seems logical that they won't overrun cis gender women in sports. Most have very little interest in it, because it's a reminder of who they were forced to be

Eh? It's not a reminder of who they were forced to be - theyre aiming to compete as the opposite of who they were.

How many winners in the open category will be biological females, do you think? 🤔

"Moral panic" = women showing concern for their own interests. It's been a popular way to shut down women's concerns about porn, CSE, and sexual abuse since the 60s. It's getting a little old now.

It's just a 'data' dump (tongs very much required), doesn't require graphs. Be grateful the convention of keeping words from running together is being adhered to.

The IOC has let transgender women compete in the women's category since 2004

Until 2015 they had to have genital reassignment surgery.

There were zero transgender athletes because transgender women only want to compete in a category where they can be affirmed and win. They were never going to win against their own sex even before they started taking hormones so open doesn't interest them. They want to be against women to affirm themselves and to win. It's all about taking away from women to make themselves feel more of a woman - something they will never be because they are of course male.