"I don't give a shit about the scientific explanations. If they identify as a women, they get to compete in sports"

Honestly, the sparple that has been plonked down on this thread over the past days has been enlightening.

And it is definitely in keeping with the fucked up rhetoric of the woman who made such an outrageously obtuse statement in the first place. And has now been shown to have no fucking clue what she was even talking about.

FFS!

Some sports have always had mixed sex sport! Do you understand that having two male people (either trans identified or not) play in a mixed sex event when there is regulation that there must be one female and one male person is a competitive advantage? But if a male with a trans identity plays with a female competitor- that is within the regulations.

So, YES! Some sports already have mixed sex events! It is well known and understood! Doesn’t mean that a male with a trans identity should take the place of a female athlete though when it is regulated for balance!

And it has been just as well known that athletes from lower categories can compete in a higher performance category in some sports. That is how categories work!

It is not that fucking hard to understand!

If you have a local sport where it is all mixed sex, fucking go for it !

It is unlikely those events or teams will change. It matters though if ONE female misses out on any opportunity because a male has taken the place of a female athlete.

Again, for the people in the back!

Just because a male has reduced performance, they never become female people.

A female person is not a reduced performance male!

And just having ‘less muscle mass to support a male skeleton’ is not the only factor. There are so many differences.

Just looking at the skeleton, pelvic structure and q-angles make a huge fucking difference! For balance, for speed, for agility for position for a slew of differences. Then it is skeletal proportions throughout the body and the mechanical advantages for leverage and movement. Hand and foot sizes.

Then comes the protective issues of female bones. They are less dense and therefore there are health risks.

The science is already known.

A male who reduces their performance does not become a female athlete, just a male athlete with reduced performance.

Female people are never failed/shorter/performance limited/smaller male people.

Here is another question for @EmiliaB71.

What is the difference between a male person who has had to have their testes removed due to injury or disease and a male person who removes them as part of an extreme body modification decision?

Why should a male who has a special identity be included in the female sports category and not those male people without testes?

And another question. What other athlete who has to make the decision to have a treatment for any health condition that reduces performance should be included in category that is not protected for their needs?

There are many health conditions that mean that some people simply cannot play sport. They have to live with the hand they are dealt. If a male with a trans identity chooses treatment options that lower their performance, who gave those athletes the idea that they should look at the female category for sports as an alternative, just because those male people may have presented in a feminine way and had a ‘reduced’ performance?

Again, the female sports categories are not consolation prizes for male people who want to dress and present themselves as they perceive female people dress and present themselves. And the female sport categories
are not there to validate a male athletes life choices. A male person can only ever live their life how they perceive a female person lives. And vice versa. It never can be that a male ‘lives as a female person’. Ever. It is simply not possible.

They only live the manifestation of their interpretation of what being female is.

And another gem of a post.

Readers note: This poster is upset that ‘discussion’ is not happening. And yet, few if any female sportsperson was included on the IOC specific committees that decided that males could become female people originally. Certainly none were included in the 2015 commitee yet males who had transitioned were.

The extreme hypocrisy of posts from male people declaring that discussions are not happening, when they finally ARE happening, seems motivated by their distaste of the final decisions. When female athletes are asked, overwhelmingly they declare that they want their sport to remain protected to only include female people. Different organisations have asked with generally over 80% of replies confirming that female athletes of all ages, girls and women, say ‘No, thank you!’

However, that is not the discussion that this poster wishes to hear. They have been told repeatedly by support groups and peers that inclusion is the only solution. Yet, that inclusion means female people are excluded. Notice, readers, the questions about other category boundaries being removed for just a few was completely ignored. It always is. Those questions are never answered.

At last sporting federations are listening to female athletes AND to the experts. Those experts being the sports scientists, the endocrinologists who specialise in testosterone and estrogen, the developmental biologists and the elite female athletes and coaches. Ie. The people who should have been consulted in depth in the first place rather than people finding a ‘solution’ for male people and expecting female people to accommodate those male people’s wishes.

And no, reader, the UK isn’t going anywhere within the next five years. Even if Scotland eventually votes for independence, it will take a lot longer than 5 years to unpick everything. This is hyperbole is scaremongering and based on no factual basis at all.

Finally readers, I am sure that you all remember that Rupert Murdoch is Australian. And his media holdings are spread throughout the world and is not confined to the UK or Australia. This poster will encounter, what they describe in that hyperbolic attack as Murdoch’s division and hate, where ever they move.

Another description of that phenomenon is ‘factual reporting’ and I would hope that they would find that in every country they live.

Hi Emilia. Welcome to Mumsnet.

I'm sorry you have spent so much time on waiting lists, but on the plus side, it sounds like getting SRS is still quicker than getting diagnosed with endometriosis, which can take a decade if you are unlucky.

The studies you are referring to have been done. They all show that no amount of testosterone suppression is enough to completely remove male physical advantage, which is why there is no scientific justification for trans women competing in women's sports, regardless of what stage they are at in their transition.

I do have a question for you though. Lia Thomas wanted to (and was allowed to) compete in the women's swimming events on the basis that Lia identifies as a woman. Lia is therefore a biologically male person with a gender identity that they believe is female. What does Lia have in common with biologically female athletes who have no gender identity, or indeed the biologically female athlete who competed in the same category whose gender identity is male? In short, if the category is no longer for biologically female athletes regardless of any identity they may or may not have, what is this category now and what is the point of it?

This post needs framing. It is a work of beauty!

“If they don't do proper longitudinal studies, it will remain guesswork. And meanwhile organisations with ulterior motives will use the situation to drive their agendas, which ultimately helps nobody but a few extremists. And the new open categories don't fix anything...because as I hinted previously: where do you think they will get the prize money from? the men's? Hmm when was the last time you saw men give something up for a fairer world...”

Community note:

The science has already been done. There has already been ‘longitudinal’ studies done. Some of the latest showing that even after a decade the reduction in testosterone doesn’t remove the advantages of the male body.

It is not ‘guesswork’ at all. The results simply are not what males who have reduced testosterone want to hear. So they are not accepting of the already proven science.

“And meanwhile organisations with ulterior motives will use the situation to drive their agendas, which ultimately helps nobody but a few extremists.”

The ‘extremists’ are any male who believes they have a place in female sports, rather than competing in a mixed sex team (as a male athlete) or against their own sex, male that is. The ‘extremists’ that emily seems to be referring to also includes female athletes demanding that their sports remain a protected category.

Again, the misogyny of that belief is immediately apparent.

And I really think that readers can plainly see that this poster very nearly gets it with this ….

“ Hmm when was the last time you saw men give something up for a fairer world...”

A male having their cock chopped off doesn’t make them a woman and I would be horrified if any medical doctor was telling male individuals that it did.

what is it about the science of the male body, even without puberty and the science of sport that you are missing? Are you missing the skeletal advantages?

What about the lung capacity? The grip strength which is a huge fucking advantage and never mitigated?

No amount of time waiting on any fucking list means that a male should claim a female sports entry as a fucking reward for all that effort! The female sports category is not for failed male athletes, and it is not a reward for male people with extreme body modifications. The entitlement of such thinking is misogynistic and beyond comprehension.

not in charge of my own body!

Fucking hell! Does any male person understand the female lived experience!

I, and billions of women and girls living and who have lived, have not been in charge of our own bodies since puberty started. Get a fucking grip!

Why do you think female people need their own sport? One reason is menstruation! Something you have no concept about that causes performance issues every month, that dramatically increases injury risk, that causes significant pain and training issues! Fuck! The complete and utter entitlement of a male person talking about being in charge of their own fucking body, is mind explodingly ignorant.

And what is the point of your post? Is it merely to try and insult me? If it is, you are going to be mighty disappointed. Plus. I've never claimed being a cisgender woman. I'm a trans woman and I am much more acutely aware of any differences in biology that exist than you could possibly imagine.

Some men take medication which makes them weaker. That doesn't make them women. Women are not weak men.

I assume your surgeons ensured that you understood that whatever surgery you had you would never be a woman. Otherwise it wasn't really informed consent.

There are sports that never had that issue: squash for example. (I mean locally, not the highly competitive play of course) ...but in regional tournaments we often mixed in certain categories. It was great fun too. For tournaments I seem to remember that the ladies could enter in men's tournament with a higher ranking (to a certain degree) which worked really well. It was very competitive and nobody ever complained.

I mostly worry about the potential effect for people who exercise recreationally, as a way to spend time with their friends.

When it's local, not intended to be competitive sport, you can already have mixed sex clubs or sports.

Or someone can set up a new women's sports event that is trans inclusive. Maybe not rugby.

I looked them up...It's how they organise the race: it;s a family event? They only have two categories and they are time based in terms of how much time they estimate they need to finish?

a) they have measured it. The evidence is that a huge male advantage remains

But, more fundamentally,

b) It is not women's job to prove the case for their sports and facilities remaining single-sex. We don't want men in them. That should be enough. Our whole fucking lives are dominated by what men want, and now they want to take the tiny oases we have carved out. Well, men can fuck off the far side of forever with that idea and then fuck off some more.

‘K, bye then.

They reduce though. Don't underestimate the long term effect of the muscle mass we lose. Obviously I'm not a top athlete, but it after three and a half years I can say that I notice how much more effort it takes, having to support the same skeletal structure with less muscle mass.
The thing is that they can measure that? So why don't they? Ultimately I don't even care about the elite level. If elite level sports remains the goal, then indeed why transition? I can't speak for others, but for me it doesn't make sense. I mostly worry about the potential effect for people who exercise recreationally, as a way to spend time with their friends.

There's consideration for a whole bunch of people missing in the concern about transgender athletes. Their mental health and wellbeing, their nascent interest in competing drowned at birth. And tm can compete in women's sport if they're not taking testosterone

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12536037/transgender-women-sport-athlete-school-college-competition.html

And humans cannot change from male to female or vice versa, it's impossible, we're not clown fish. 1st year, 2nd, 90th, makes no difference.

Tw will have to decide what is more important to them, their sporting career now and their 'authentic self' later. Or not. As women have to choose between careers or family.

I'm new, I was merely reading and honestly hadn't noticed it's an archived thread. But the thread shows something I see happening everywhere these days.: Nobody really talks anymore. All that tends to happen is as soon as 2 sentences are said, people dig in their heels and stop listening. Once that happens it never ends well. In barely 5 years time I have seen the UK change into such a dark place. I am lucky in a sense that I get to flee. I merely go back home in a month, sell my flat here and that's that. But if I'm honest, I don't see the UK surviving for another five years. Every democratic principle has been severely undermined and you've got Murdoch who constantly stokes division and hate because that's how he gets richer. This country is in a lot of trouble.

Lia Thomas, the reduction from 2 to 1 year hormone therapy was a bad decision. 1 year is too short. Anyone who has gone through transition from male to female will confirm that a lot of changes to the body are very much in full swing during that second year.

You could wait 80 years, and Lia would still have all the advantages of male puberty, in terms of heart size, lung capacity etc

Have you also considered that getting SRS isn't easy? 4 years waiting for an initial consult. You need to live full-time for a minimum of 1 year before you're allowed to have a conversation. SRS requires permission from 2 surgeons who independently confirm that you are informed and know what to expect. It took me until end of June this year to get the endorsement letter for surgery. And now it's again a waiting game (18months is the current waiting time between endorsement and surgery). In some ways it is humiliating that at 52 I am not in charge of my own body.
As for sports: at elite-level, if I specifically look at e.g, Lia Thomas, the reduction from 2 to 1 year hormone therapy was a bad decision. 1 year is too short. Anyone who has gone through transition from male to female will confirm that a lot of changes to the body are very much in full swing during that second year. That is also a big part of the turmoil now: It's like every federation threw a dart at a dartboard to decide what their policy would be. And now It's really how it is being handled now which is just not helpful for anyone. If they don't do proper longitudinal studies, it will remain guesswork. And meanwhile organisations with ulterior motives will use the situation to drive their agendas, which ultimately helps nobody but a few extremists. And the new open categories don't fix anything...because as I hinted previously: where do you think they will get the prize money from? the men's? Hmm when was the last time you saw men give something up for a fairer world...

Exactly this.

The rules are there to ensure fair competition.

In the before times people cheated to give themselves an unfair advantage.

Now they just change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.

@EmiliaB71
Can I ask why you resurrected this thread from four months ago?

Male athletes in women's sports are cheating. Plain as day. They know it, we know it. Fuck the governing bodies and the letter of the law, they are moral cheats. All cheats excuse their actions to make themselves feel not guilty however they cheat. Transwomen in women's sports are no exception.

And non-binary prizes in sport are like teachers contriving to give some kind of prize to a volatile kiddo at sports day even though he's crap... because they know he'll kick the fuck off if he doesn't win something. Like a "special" rosette at a horse show. 😆

It's pathetic all round. You have a sexed body, just fucking deal with that reality.

Moral panic
Wrong side of history
Just want to pee
Who's a pretty boy then

I wish this political lobby would teach its parrots some new phrases to replace these now very, very tired ones.