Continuously willing to discuss in good faith: part 3

Personally the phrase 'gender critical' irritates me. I don't generally seek to position myself or align myself or lable myself as anything in particular unless there's good reason.

What reasons are there to use this phrase? How does it benefit anyone?

I'm not sure anyone should have to "face what they believe may be wrong and need to re-evaluate". For some people (not saying Spooky because I haven't asked and nor will I), that core belief of gender identity will remain important.

The problem is that the people that are fighting for us all to live in this alternative universe think that they are the ones that think the sky is important and that we are all just wittering on about different hues of blue. They post videos that we actually watch whilst skimming over things we post.

For example in the last thread I posted about David Reimer.

Spooky's only comment was that the reason that he was in the situation he was in, was because of a botched circumcision. And then stopped.

The reason he was in the situation was because after that, the doctor who had professed to be able to do something about it, operated on him, got his parents to call him a girl and never tell him about the operation, used to get him and his brother to perform sex acts on each other and he lived a life of misery. All this was hidden and the 'transition' was lauded as groundbreaking and was used as a model for going forward and by the time David realised that his case was already in the medical establishment, and being used as a success, he came out and told everyone and then he later committed suicide. And STILL the medics didn't backtrack on this evidence of success. His life was completely ruined. And his brother's.

I mean, he couldn't run away could he?

My experinece of falling out with my previous Christian faith ( even though the symbols and emotional consequences remain meaningful in many ways) came as a result of the inherent cognitive dissonance involved when being with my circle of friends, who were all buddhists, meditators, 'New Age'y' type people.

It becomes impossible to maintain a certain stance when you realise that the people around you are not inherently backslidden, deluded or in thrall to the ego. The sense of separation, superiority or 'difference' that is required to maintain that position cannot hold for long.

Such faith based/cult-like structures tend to collapse under stress, which is why they are so assiduously guarded.

It's possible to come at most things from a feminist point of view and a non-feminist or even anti-feminist point of view. You can be anti-porn from a feminist point of view (most porn is men exploiting and misrepresenting women and women's sexuality for men's pleasure) or from an anti-feminist point of view (women shouldn't want to have sex or enjoy sex and shouldn't ever be shown as having or enjoying sex).

I am happy to think of myself as "gender critical feminist". That leaves room for feminists (I know several) who really do believe in some of kind of inner gender identity and who do see this as a solution to some of the problems of a sexist society (I think it only makes matters worse but never mind). It also leaves room for a kind of "gender critical" person who takes the label (or has the label stuck on them by others) without taking a feminist approach at all, a person who sees no difference between sex and gender roles because they believe women have vaginas and naturally hairless legs (etc) and if they don't have naturally hairless legs then they'd better shave them, and if anyone's not comfortable with the roles society assigns to men and women well too bad.

It's annoying to have non-feminist or even anti-feminist views being called "gender critical" but it's not something I'm going to lose sleep over either.

This is quite true, I think. Which is why so often when we try to discuss those sincere but unexamined beliefs they don't stand up to scrutiny.

It's common for people to 'outsource' their thinking, people are often credulous, and listen to self proclaimed experts.

One of the problems with this is when people claim they have special expertise - if we know we dont have this expertise then it can be quite hard to assess the quality or veracity of someone else's claims.

When someone's claiming 'lived experience' of something that is indefinable- say 'gender identity' and we personally don't have that experience, it seems rational to assume they have specialist knowledge.

I had a brief fling with an evangelical christian church in my early 20s. The experience of having being 'born again' was very real and deeply meaningful to me; and very healing.

The problem was the whole baggage of a church and other believers came with it. When people become involved in groups which are bound together by some sort of religious or political faith or ideology - the group dynamics tend to take over from the actual and direct experience of God and the relationship with God through Jesus Christ ( in the case of a Christian).

People end up behaving according to peer pressure, or the expectations of those senior, more influential or more powerful than them - and this is when group conformity and group-think starts to come into play. you are discouragedd from forming friendships or even close associations with those who are outside of that group - and you end up feeling that you have to view them in a certain way, pray for them, and hope that one day they will be saved too.

I think even if you weren't, like many of us you'd probably be mature enough to be able to cope with the fact that not everyone shares your faith.

Obviously if someone was coming into your pace of prayer and wilfully desecrating it - you might feel and respond quite differently.

The problem is, though, if you uuse the above analogy i can imagine that some trans activists may say you are wilfully desecrating their reality and denying their existence - and that is because so much of the trans identity tends to be based on an incredible fragility, which is threatened by everything that is not totally affirmative.

That we can only ask questions in a certain tone of voice for fear that the other person is too fragile to cope with anything other than motherly spoon feeding and delicately phrased sentences.

Are you sure you are not being more than a little disingenuous with that question? ?

Of course how we refer to people is a matter of negotiation between invested parties, and those nearest and dearest; not something to be assumed or automatically expected of everyone. As you suggest, the way we approach a relationship or a communication tends very much to depend on the nature of the relationship involved and the context we are in.

No, but I'm an atheist...

I hate the term Gender Critical. Because I don't GAF about gender. Be whatever of the 72 genders you please, I couldn't care less.

So long as sex based rights and needs are respected and enforced.

The GC label references what isn't important, not what is.

You might just want to watch the Wider Lens interview with the TRA turned whistleblower that I linked earlier.

https://www.parents.com/parenting/my-transgender-child-this-is-how-i-know/
Another to get you started spooky perhaps a re-evaluation of who is pushing harmful stereotypes on children is needed?

Most mental health conditions - certainly those relating to self perception anxiety, social anxiety, ocd - are a sign that society is fucking up somehow.

gender dysphoria is a clear example of sexism and homophobia in society.

No one should have to alter their body to feel happier. Or feel accepted.

Anyone else is playing dressing up games and none of us are obligated to take part.

We are in this mess because there's a Transgender movement that's become politically active.

Please read this site. Spot the homophobic and sexist abuse seven was subjected to as a child. The distress is real. Seven understood the issues so well they used male bathrooms. Seven joined Mr Menno in lobbying the Scottish gov for women.

One of the reasons seven joined the women's side is that they saw how the real transphobic backlash would come. As far as I know seven has desisted as a result, despite it bringing huge distress - to avoid transphobia.

Blaming women who stand up for their legal rights and want to ensure children aren't damaged for transphobic (homophobic) backlashes, is victim blaming.

sevenhex.com/

Yes, I think a lot more research, reading and reflection upon what has passed over the last few days would be useful.

I watched an interview with a Cognitive Professor from Missouri this week, David Geary, which details the differences in brain development and I thought halfway through 'ping' I wonder if this is the 'I have a female brain scan' thing that TRAs bang on about and was about to go down that rabbit hole until the prof was like 'Oh my god no way can women compete against men in sports due to the brain differences just due to their processing ability and the way that males perceive moving objects that women just can't'.

I find it fascinating because I'm a woman who does have spatial awareness, does maths, did engineering, did all the things and played with all the things 'boyish' but was not one bit interested in moving things such as sports, cars, trucks etc. I spent my career in engineering.

Every time I go down some research [as yes, I do investigate the other side as much as I can] scientifically and I mean scientifically, it comes to an abrupt halt as the other side literally just has stereotypes and flawed science which either makes up nonsense or comes to conclusions that are opposite to what the studies show [and thats the ones that aren't tainted by the techniques used to investigate said thing]. Ive been digging for 7 full years now.

I don't think the 'wider public' have misconceptions about what the GC position is; as up until fairly recently most people have been burying their head in the sand and waiting for it all to go away.

Trans activists and 'allies' certainly do seem to have misconceptions, though, an that is based, purely, on the fact that no alternative views or materials may be heard or read. They are instantly classified as banned or hateful and so subject to censure.

Trans activists seem to genuinely believe it is they who are breaking down gender stereotypes. It is as if 50 years of feminism and the gay liberation movement had never happened; apart from a belief, or an assertion, that are no sex based differences at all - "so what does it matter what kind of genitals you have; what you are inside is the most important thing"

You asked for a discussion. You probably suddenly feel uncomfortable because you have found us pretty reasonable, but now we are at a point where you have to face that what you believe may be wrong and you need to re-evaluate. What will running away achieve?

Stick around read other threads, even if you don't post.