Continuously willing to discuss in good faith: part 3

I've been thinking about this and I suspect that society didn't accommodate very 'feminine' presenting men as well as was needed.

I think this has played a role in people (bizarrely) feeling more comfortable with the idea that they're 'actually women'.

I think that the support groups quickly pivoted from using stereotypes when they realised it was such a weak premise for diagnosing someone as trans. I remember when they realized and try to change the narrative.

Same. It was all about the stereotypes. We had one tw on here who said they could only feel 'vibrant' when dressed as a woman.

And wanted to wear colourful clothes, if I recall correctly.

In the beginning when transwomen discovers FWR, we saw it on here quite a lot. Transwoman explaining that they felt more nurturing, or more sensitive 'as a woman'. One particular person said they wanted to be like the mean girls in Hollywood movies.

And, of course, it was instantly recognised and called out as damaging stereotypes. And before long, the official narrative changed. To an inner essence. Indefinable, unverifiable, and too difficult to explain. Yet should be taught to children in schools and incorporated into law.

You still see all the time tho. The most recent incarnation is Dylan Mulvaney . Who cried three times and wrote a scathing email they didn't send, in order to act 'like a woman'.

As people have repeatedly asked. If you haven't suddenly acquired a female reproductive system, and aren't identifying with societally stereotypes, what is it?

With GI we have not and that is where the problem lies.

What should be done?

And how would you fix this?
Gender identity, the belief that gender (how someone says they feel) is more important than sex.
Is not comparable with single sex provision is it. Out of all the religions gende identity is the only one insistent that I have to have one too and requires me to recatogrise myself into a sub box of my sex.

It's not possible to have both gender and sex in law.

As a thought experiment on categorising people opposed to an idea in order to bash their motivations. It is a key concept in these circles. So lets say, 100% of people opposed to 'Trans Ideology' are really nasty people, completely horrible, scum of the earth. The theory is that by not associating with them, keeping clear of their ideas, being clean yourself is a very convenient way of stating that you are not 'one of them' and as such, your motivations are pure and genuine.

But even if that is the case, does it change the following:
35% of the children referred to the clinic presented as autistic or had autistic traits compared to 2% of the general UK population [at GIDS].

Children referred to GIDS were 10 times as likely to have a registered sex offender as a parent than the general UK population.

There were not signed consent forms. NONE. The consent was all done via verbal consent and the clinicians were told not to write it down.

There should have been 3 forms send after an initial visit. One for 'meets criteria', one for 'needs more investigation' and one for 'doesn't meet criteria'. The whistleblower said she was never told to send the second two, everyone was progressed.

Around 80-90% of the children referred to these clinics are children who are or are likely to be gay or lesbians. [This is where the 'transing the gay away' phrase which was rife at GIDS came from]. When clinicians who were themselves gay raised this as a concern they were told they were 'too close to the issue' and to shut up.

None of these [told by whistleblowers or people that left these clinics] depend on the people that are on the outside 'hating' trans people. Not one.

There are lots of religions and beliefs throughout the world and it is easy to respect others beliefs if you are not forced to believe them yourself. I work for a Church but I am not a believer. I understand that other people get something from their beliefs but never has anyone suggested that I should believe too. The thing is in workplaces we have tried to accommodate different beliefs in various ways through dress, prayer rooms, work rotas whatever. We have made separate provision for different beliefs when they matter. With GI we have not and that is where the problem lies.

I agree with this.

There certainly are people who say “I don’t feel like a man/woman” as reason for transitioning.

But not feeling “like a man” does not make someone a woman and vice versa.

I am unsure whether this was posted before. In case it was not, here it is.

Autism, Puberty, and Gender Dysphoria:The view from an autistic desisted woman

My teen was horrifed to see those ken and Barbie continuum!

But yes, nothing has been put forward since that was revoked to replace it.

That really is indicative that stereotypes got the lobby and support groups that far. The lack of a clear explanation now shows much about the lack of evidence in general.

Yes, indeed.

We have learned to live with our disagreements about 'god', however. Perhaps the way we learned to do this could be instructive in our current predicament regarding 'gender identity' etc.

We do not (most of us, any longer) make and enforce laws about fine theological points; we do not persecute blasphemers ... We teach about peoples' religious beliefs in our schools, rather than teaching a section of those beliefs to children as though they were true. We respect people with different (sometimes, to our minds, nonsensical) beliefs and allow them space to live in accordance with them so long as they don't restrict or constrict others. And so on.

This took time. A long time, in fact.

It seems now such a backward step that we have to go back to fighting for these new (to our mind nonsensical) beliefs to be dealt with societally in the same way as the old ones.

Oh well. Plus ça change ... I suppose.

From what I've just watched;

a load of men in dresses and skirts just put a nice dress on the king (a nonsense thing) after he was annotated by god (a nonsense thing).

!!!

I am wondering at one of the arguments that we see here often.

Do ‘gender critical’ people worry how people see them?

The thing about that is, who uses that term anyway?

In Australia , when I speak to people about the need for women to have changing rooms, prisons and sports, I rarely come across family or friends who don’t see the need of women and girls to have these without males included.

They have no idea what that term means. Or if it even applies to them.

It is the same here in the UK, but I know less people. Either way, they have no idea what that term means, but most agree fully or at the very least partially.

To be fair, I see it used on social media by extreme trans activists more than anywhere else. And just about always as Mica has done.

The label doesn’t stop people agreeing and understanding who don’t have exposure to the extreme trans activist narrative. It is people who listen to those activists that end up closing their minds. And maybe that is a ‘them’ issue more than anything else, because it is hardly ‘tolerant’ to not listen to other’s opinions.

My hunch is that for most trans people “I want to do xyz” or “I definitely don’t want to do xyz” comes before “therefore I am a woman/man”. The gender identity part is a rationalisation of the impulse. Obviously, this is just me having an opinion I’ve just thought of - it’s not a core belief! I’d happily be dissuaded of this by even anecdotal data.

Gender identity is like Dumbos magic feather. He could already fly, but he thought he needed a feather. People can always dress up and act however they want, but thinking they have a gender identity gives them the courage to do it.

If it’s not about stereotypes, what they hell was that graphic with Barbie at one end and GI Joe at the other about? I know trainers have done a reverse ferret on that one, but there was a point when it was all over the place. And as Helle points out, the stereotypes explanation has been rescinded as it didn’t look good, but it hasn’t been replaced by anything else, not even anything that doesn’t really make sense. Just tumbleweed.

[Btw, there is a sense in which it isn't false that there is such a thing as gender identity, at least the way things stand with what 'gender identity' means. That's because 'gender identity' (the phrase)doesn't make sense, and in order to say that such-and-such isfalse, we need 'such-and-such' to make sense - tomean something -, which as things stand, 'there is such a thing as gender identity' doesn't. In this sense, 'there is such a thing as gender identity', we might say (Ido say)isn't even false; it's just nonsense.]

I've always said this about "god". The thing is obviously a nonsense thing.

NotHavingIt· Today 09:36
SinnerBoy · Today 09:25

I think even if you weren't, like many of us you'd probably be mature enough to be able to cope with the fact that not everyone shares your faith.

Obviously if someone was coming into your pace of prayer and wilfully desecrating it - you might feel and respond quite differently.

Well, quite - to both points.

If, on the other hand, a street preacher, or door knocker decide to harangue me and threaten me with Hellfire, uninvited, I'd feel free to walk away, or tell them to bugger off.

They say that, but have you ever seen it explained properly otherwise?

I think that the support groups quickly pivoted from using stereotypes when they realised it was such a weak premise for diagnosing someone as trans. I remember when they realized and try to change the narrative.

So, without stereotypes, they have nothing. But if you have seen a convincing explanation other than stereotypes, please do post it.

It may seem rational (although I have tried and failed to see how), but it surely isn't rational to assume they have knowledge.

There is no such thing as gender identity. (Though of course some people may think there is.)

One cannot have lived experience of something that doesn't exist. (Although some people may think they do.)

So it is not true that some people have had lived experience of gender identity.

And you can't know something that is not true. (Although, indeed, you may think you do.)

So it is not rational to assume they have specialist knowledge.

[Btw, there is a sense in which it isn't false that there is such a thing as gender identity, at least the way things stand with what 'gender identity' means. That's because 'gender identity' (the phrase) doesn't make sense, and in order to say that such-and-such is false, we need 'such-and-such' to make sense - to mean something -, which as things stand, 'there is such a thing as gender identity' doesn't. In this sense, 'there is such a thing as gender identity', we might say (I do say) isn't even false; it's just nonsense.]

Am I wrong? What does 'gender identity' mean, if so?

@SpookyFBI
I originally came at this in a similar way to you, I didn't understand the subject matter too well.

I really became involved when my 5 year old insisted on wearing feminine clothes (and I think because of other children at nursery he got confused and start saying he was a girl), long long story there.

The group's i joined were very insistent, to the point of demanding I start affirming his "choice of gender"

But why, why was it so important, why couldn't a boy in pink, "strawberry mbeilkshake" colours be a boy.

Surely if he is transgender he will still be as an adult, why the push now?

It seemed wrong. And so this is where I currently am. I can tell you every "my child is transgender" account starts with hair or toys.

It's all stereotypes.

Yes.

@SpookyFBI on males getting sexually aroused from cross-dressing, reading the "Egg In Real Life" reddit at https://reddit.com/r/egg_irl is quite revealing - it's a forum for people who have recently decided they are trans, mostly male, posting about their experiences. One recurring theme is the "euphoria boner", which is the erection these males get from wearing women's clothing.

Here are some examples:

https://old.reddit.com/r/egg_irl/comments/126lm2w/egg_irl/

https://old.reddit.com/r/egg_irl/comments/w3u9lw/egg_irl/

https://old.reddit.com/r/egg_irl/comments/11jdg9m/egg_irl/

I got to were spooky said they were stepping back and haven’t read from there. I will catch up later as my baby is siring from nap. I just really wanted to thank you @SpookyFBI
for you comments at the start of this thread about categories. It made me think in ways I hadn’t considered and I’m grateful to you for discussing.

So I’m thinking terms keep being muddied so we should summarise/define so we are harder to misunderstand??

So in future I need to not be saying “men are not women” I need to say “men can wear dresses but are not women. Woman can wear trousers but are not men. Gender is not sex. gender stereotypes can and should be challenged but biological sex is irrefutable”

I’m not sure that TWAW is the core belief. I think “Live and let live” is the core belief, and twaw is plugged into it like a tick.

I’m with you BonfireLady on your stance re personally disbelieving in gender identity, but respecting others’ right to believe, just as an atheist can be respectful towards a Christian. I share your views but I must admit I do struggle with preferred pronouns, so I’m guessing I’d be painted as transphobic for that.

It feels like I’m lying to myself if I call a TW she or a TM he. It’s really jarring so I try to skirt around it to avoid bluntly misgendering, although rapists don’t get the same courtesy.

I dislike the fact that in order to keep trans people happy, I have to play along. They can’t just be themselves and enjoy being themselves, they need other people to validate them or it doesn’t work. That’s why TW want to enter women’s single-sex spaces, sports and award categories. Other people have to be a prop to validate the TW’s identity, which brings us back to the desert island scenario.

The sole survivor of a plane crash on a desert island, a TW, is going to run out of make-up, their clothing will soon be in rags, there is no ladies’ toilet (they’ll need to dig a hole), no hormone treatment, no social media and no one is there to say she/her.

That TW is then going to be focused on survival at all costs. Physical strength will be of paramount importance and I have no doubt the TW will capitalise fully on the advantage that male puberty will have provided them. Identity, how they feel inside, will matter not one jot when they’re fighting for survival every day.