"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

Lesbians reject transwomen because they are MEN and genital surgery doesn't change that, the surgically created vagina is NOT a vagina, it's a very poor imitation. It turns my stomach to think of it

Have you watched her videos? She picks apart the trans nonsense piece by piece, I mean look at this classic she totally rips apart the idea of some man pretending to be a woman because he slapped on a skirt and some makeup:

Actually, just to add a further thought to this:
If Stonewall could reframe it as a positive and celebrate that transwomen are men who identify as women, this could also be very helpful in allaying the fears that the trans community has about discrimination. There was a really good articulation of this fear in another thread from a Maslow's hierarchy of needs perspective.

To explain myself better re the fear: if transwomen are men, this removes the point of conflict between women's rights and transwomen's (men who identify as women's) rights, which could remove a significant amount of the foundation which underpins the fear. Also, turning it around and celebrating that transwomen are men who identify as women helps to highlight a minority so that discrimination against them can be avoided. It also respects their gender identity belief (that they identify as women) while accepting the fact that not everyone has a gender identity belief.

Yes it is the current Stonewall position that heterosexual men, like all people, are free to choose to identify and label their gender identity howsoever they wish. If the gender identity they feel suits them best is woman, they would then bea woman (who remains attracted to women) and therefore lesbian is the correct and appropriate term for them to use to describe their sexual orientation.

there are also a great many transmen (who are obviously trans people) that still call themselves lesbians and can and do date lesbians.

Hmmmmmm! Hopefully Stonewall will figure out that the best way to support transmen (either lesbian or straight) is to say that transwomen are men who identify as women. That should be seen as a positive and something to be celebrated. If they are adamant that sexual orientation and gender identity are separate (and I agree with that), transwomen being men who identify as women (and transmen being women who identify as men) is the only thing that makes any sense. @MerlinsLostMarbles do you think there would be a way for Stonewall to see how positive this could be for the whole of the LGBT community?

Quoting:

https://mashable.com/article/no-trans-people-preference-transphobic

"“No trans people” cannot be a preference, because the only characteristic shared by all trans people is transness. Being trans doesn’t determine what your body looks like, and it’s an exclusion that reinforces systemic discrimination. Preferences are usually related to specific physical characteristics (you might have a “type”, like a certain hair colour) or actions (oral sex, kinks). Reducing trans people to either of those categories is an oversimplification often rooted in misunderstanding or transphobia."

Quoting:

https://detester.org/publication/115

"Firstly, it should be mentioned that super straightness is not about genitalia. Genital preferences aren’t necessarily transphobic by themselves. However, transphobia becomes apparent when even after a trans person undergoes gender reassignment surgery and matches one’s so-called genitalia preference, that person is still completely disregarded as a potential partner."

Calling trans people black faced actors and sick fucks.
How does that make you a hero sheroe whatever?
We clearly have very different views on the definition

Same

No worries!

Yes, Magdalen is much missed. What a star. RIP.

Ahh @BonfireLady for the purposes of clarity I will use some 'old fashioned' terms even if the post does get deleted

Yes it is the current Stonewall position that heterosexual men, like all people, are free to choose to identify and label their gender identity howsoever they wish. If the gender identity they feel suits them best is woman, they would then be a woman (who remains attracted to women) and therefore lesbian is the correct and appropriate term for them to use to describe their sexual orientation.

I am genuinely not sure if we are allowed to say peaked now? This was the issue on which I first found I could not actually agree to the demanded concessions.

The special feeling that would allow a heterosexual man to decide that from now on he will be pursuing sexual / romantic relationships solely with homosexual women is imo entitlement, it seems to me to be utterly contemptuous of the feelings and sexual orientation of others.

Some understandably express high levels of frustration that for reasons apparently beyond the ken of mortal men the other lesbians are happy to be friends but do not actually want to have sex with them, and the reality is so very different to the fantasy / hoped for outcome. They can become very bitter and or very very lonely so I'm pretty grumpy with everyone who encourages and 'supports' this and everyone who said anything to him to persuade and reassure such men that this was a great plan that would make them a lot happier.

====================================================

The issue is as ever utterly confounded and confused by language and preferred pronouns. Because there are also a great many transmen (who are obviously trans people) that still call themselves lesbians and can and do date lesbians.

So in new speak it is absolutely no longer the case to say lesbians don't sleep with men.

Oops sorry @aseriesofstillimages I'm not sure how I ended up grabbing your quote there! That was just meant to be a response to @MerlinsLostMarbles re the original post.

Interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing @MerlinsLostMarbles

"Being a lesbian and being trans are not mutually exclusive – sexual orientation and gender are different parts of our identities. You can be trans and a lesbian".

I sort of get it but also I struggle. My understanding is that lesbians are biological women who are attracted to biological women (same sex attraction). Does that mean that the author is saying that a lesbian could be attracted to a trans man? i.e. to a biological woman who has a male gender identity.

I'm not a lesbian so I'm going to play it back on myself as a straight biological woman to get my head around it (I think I've got the sex and gender bit right):

Being straight and trans are not mutually exclusive - sexual orientation and gender are different parts of our identities. You can be trans and a straight person.

So I'm a straight person who is attracted to another straight person (opposite sex attraction) who could be trans. That means I could be attracted to a biological man who identifies as a trans woman. Correct? I guess I could in theory.... true.

Or is it the other way round and a biological straight woman like me could be attracted to a biological woman who has a male gender identity? Presumably not as that would make me a lesbian woman, because the trans man is biologically a woman. So I think I got it the right way round the first time.

The only bit I'm really struggling with is how to keep the sexual orientation (same sex attraction) and the gender identity (male, female or other gender identity) separate like the author explains. Does that make sense?

Fucking ridiculous.

That's what gives them the power.

Mumsnet you ought to be ashamed.

I was deleted earlier for mentioning the comedian who shall not be named and the position of his hand as apparently we are not allowed to say what we see any more.

Ah well spotted.

It's the chap who has girl days and boy days.

Knows he's a man when it comes to acting contracts. Claims to be a girl when it comes to frotting in a queue.

You mean the photo of Eddie Izzard scratching his balls outside the ladies' loo?

Absofeckinlutely! These men think if they look like a Barbie doll or a Thai ladyboy we lesbians will want them; NEVER.
Give me a real imperfect woman any day of the week. Additionally whilst men only want 20somethings, Lesbian culture adores middle-aged women. And Lesbians want partners of their own age.
The youth obsession is strictly male. All you have to do is look at male gay culture where being over 30=old man. So sad.

Came here to name drop Nancy Kelly.

Yes I remember the photo in the ladies of the famous girl mode comedian in the pink coat with his hand underneath it seemingly grasping his sausage.
Men need to use the men's room and respect women's boundaries.

@MerlinsLostMarbles
I've never seen any LGBT people say it is "phobic" for people to have preferences over who they wish to sleep with. The only people I've seen say this are Gender Criticals.

Here let me help jog your memory.
The wonderful Magdalen Berns ( RIP, you were taken far too young Magdalen ) shredding Riley J Dennis' video saying it is "phobic" for people to have preferences over who they wish to sleep with.
Riley appears to have deleted the video Magdalen is criticizing because I can't find it. I wonder why?
I hope this helps with your memory issues?

And it’s funny how it’s gender critical women who are to blame for this, and who are supposed to be sad about it and try to fix it, isn’t it? #Bekind, ladies! Make sure the penis-people aren’t upsetting the other penis-people! They’ll get hurty-feelz.

There is no such thing as ‘a gender critical’ It’s a description not a thing.

I am not a gender critical. I do hold many views that do not align with gender identity ideology. It’s not the same thing.

Can we address the utterly dehumanisisng way this particular OP is using ‘GCs’ as a noun on this thread?

It’s not ok.

"MerlinsLostMarbles · Today 17:03

I've never seen any LGBT people say it is "phobic" for people to have preferences over who they wish to sleep with. The only people I've seen say this are Gender Criticals."

I have never seen or heard a Gender Critical saying that. Transwomen on the other hand seem to have it as their mantra. So I stand by my accusation that you are being disingenuous.