"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

Why do you get to determine the "common view" ?

Yes. What do you call it when you want to find something out and then look up the relevant sources to find out that information?

Or is that something you don't have to trouble yourself with so much?

I never said it cancels any rights.

Just asking people to stop pretending that they are representing some sort of lesbian viewpoint.

I never claimed no lesbian is anti trans. I explicitly included Joanna Cherry. If you guys want to campaign on the basis that a very small minority of lesbians agree with you, then go right ahead. Just stop pretending it is a common view among lesbians.

I liked that. Especially the 93% figure. Sounds very impressive. That's LOTS!

And to that list we can add Jo Phoenix, Allison Bailey, Martina Navratilova...

You have to exclude women like Julie Bindel, Kate Harris, Kathleen Stock etc from "us" for your last sentence to work. Even if your tiny sample of middle-class politics people were representative and most lesbians in the UK welcome males into lesbian-only spaces, why would that majority cancel the right of lesbians who don't welcome males in said spaces to say so?

My point is merely that contrary to what a lot of people on here say, there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you.

I have lot's of actual experience of agreement!

Do you remember Get the L out at Pride. Are we pretending that didn't happen. Are we pretending LGBA don't exist?

Honestly, if it's superior feminism to pretend that there are no people that have different perspectives on this then keep it.

And yes, I can call women MPs subservient fools when that's my considered evaluation. After all the Deputy Labour leader doesn't hesitate to call MPs she dislikes "scum".

So I did some research 😂😂

All of which has been discussed ad nauseum.

My point is merely that contrary to what a lot of people on here say, there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you.

So perhaps the 'GC movement' could stop using us to further their agenda?

Can you not see how accepting that any biological male can, purely on trust of any given male, access women’s safe spaces represents the abolition of sex-based safeguarding of women and girls? And that asserting this as an inalienable right will make many women and girls feel at the very least unsafe?

Nor should removal of body parts for psychological reasons be a “right”. Advocating it for children while framing it as ‘healthcare’ (and talking therapy as 'conversion') is particularly irresponsible.

Dismissing 93% of gay and bi women MPs as 'subservient fools' for disagreeing with you.

Sure, keep telling us how much feminist this movement is.

But it should perhaps make people stop using lesbians to further their case.

Any MP that supports men who want to be in women's prisons, sports, places where they are undressing and having intimate care, is highly suspect.

Women MPs that do this and don't want women to ever be able to excercise their own boundaries are subservient fools with questionable morals.

There's lots of them.

Sometimes the wishes of the majority don't get to over-ride the wishes of a minority.

The rights that folk on this board are so passionately against.

The ability of a trans woman to use the women's bathrooms.

The ability of trans kids to not be subjected to conversion therapy.

The ability of a trans person to access timely gender related healthcare (and no, right now, unless they can go private they cannot access that).

So rail all you like, but I thought it was interesting - but unsurprising given my own experience - that 14 out of 15 gay or bi women MPs support these things, versus only one who opposes them.

What "rights" of trans people?

The things you are talking about either already exist or aren't rights.

Trans people already can access healthcare.

And there is no such thing as spaces which align with their gender identity. There are male and female spaces, and accessing spaces intended for members of the opposite sex is not a right, it is an infringement of the rights of the opposite sex.

That's not research!

This lesbian disagrees.

I only saw this thread for the first time today. Which was interesting because I watched the Westminster Hall debate yesterday, and was struck by how the most powerful speeches and interventions came from lesbians.

So I did some research - there are 15 women in the House of Commons listed as being lesbian, bi or (in the case of Layla Moran) pansexual.

Six of them spoke yesterday - five of them opposed changing the Equality Act. Joanna Cherry was the only lesbian or bi woman to support changing the Act.

I got to wondering whether she was speaking for a silent majority of lesbian and bi MPs. Turns out no, she wasn't. Of the 9 gay and bi women MPs who didn't speak, all of them are on the record as supporting the rights of trans people to access healthcare, access spaces in line with their gender identity. This ranges from those who have been powerfully vocal, like Mhairi Black, through to others who have contributed through twitter etc (like Dehenna Davison's support for self-ID and banning conversion therapy).

The myth that is peddled on here - that lesbians are crying out to limit trans women's rights to access women's spaces, groups etc is just nonsense. I know this anecdotally from my own circle - a pretty big group of lesbians and (a smaller number of) bi women - most of us in our thirties and forties. But it is interesting to have a cohort of women whose views are on the record, and discover that 93% of gay, bi and pan women MPs share very similar views to me and my friends about trans rights.

My friend's 22yo daughter is same-sex attracted, basically what I'd call in old money a lesbian. Or in modern terms a cis-female lesbian.
She's they/themming it, very much online-oriented and everybody she knows is some kind of special queer person.
She's thinking about getting a double mastectomy. Thankfully it's out of her price range. I think she's a brilliant young woman, who has had and is having a lot of mental health difficulties. I'm hoping that she doesn't go down that pathway, but in the end she's a grown adult and it's her body, her call.
As her friend (we are friends in our own right, despite the age gap and that I'm friends with her mother), all I can do is support her in body acceptance and the best health in mind/body for the future.

And if you're not currently being offered mussels/helping to decide the menu at a veggie restaurant

Unfortunately a lot of these occasional meat/fish eaters (and I don't really see mussels as any different to a rare steak) do take it upon themselves to decide the menu at vegetarian restaurants, so I fully understand why some vegetarians want them to choose a different word.

You presumably know yourself.

How?

This illustrates the problem, via Ovarit yesterday:

A «trope»… like on TV…

It’s true some of the younger lesbians I know are gung ho for inclusivity, but do seem uninterested in dating transwomen and constantly bemoan the death of lesbian bars and wish they’d come of age in the 90s. I hold my tongue. And the younger lot are definitely not all coupled up, they’re looking for love deprived of a same sex space in which to do so and it’s bloody hard.

How does anyone else saying tbeyre a lesbian make you any less of one?
You presumably know yourself.

Lesbian is taken.
It's reserved for bio women who love bio women.

Everyone else with a gender identity and a variety of same-sex and opposite sex tastes is QUEER. That was the whole point of the term to include those who didn't fit into the Gay and Lesbian categories.

So you can fuck right off.
says this Lesbian

I think that they're good guesses though Coozud I saw a breakdown - but the situation is changing so rapidly that these could already be out of date

(Can only use sex based terms here to speak coherently)
Transwomen who are Gay men (and therefore either unlikely to be on a lesbian dating app or would be exclusively interested in other TW) 20%
Transwomen who are sexually interested in men and women (& therefore likely to include other transwomen in their dating pool) 20%
Transwomen who are exclusively interested in dating women 60%

At one stage it was roughly 50 / 50 and I think a big proportion of the general population still think of them as being all gay men who are sleeping with each other.