"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

Stonewall doesn't get to single handedly redefine homosexuality as same gender identity attraction.

It is morbidly fascinating that they have attempted to see how far their history and social capital with homosexual people will allow them to get away with and it is impressive/terrifying how many people have gone along with it in such a short period of time but that doesn't mean they get to change what something as intimate as sexuality means and label everyone who disagrees prejudiced or transphobic.

At some point the right on inclusive gay folk will notice that everything set up for gay people is populated by heterosexual people with interesting gender presentations or sexual kinks. And maybe they'll wonder where all the regular lesbians and gay men went.

Does that make us Marbleophobic, @HermioneWeasley?

As you can see @MerlinsLostMarbles nobody here is buying what you’re selling. We are well informed and capable of critical thinking.

This isn't even a secret as the founder Allison Bailey said it was setup to oppose LGBT charity Stonewall

Perfectly reasonable to want an org for LGB people that doesn't call lesbians 'sexual racists' and promotes ''cotton ceiling'' workshops to train heterosexual men in how to coerce lesbians into sex with them.

The judge at AB's employment tribunal found that everything Allison had said about Stonewall was part of her protected belief, therefore worthy of respect in a democratic society, which wouldn't be the case if anything Allison had said about Stonewall was ''anti-trans''.

290. Applying the Grainger criteria to the beliefs she held, we concluded that her beliefs, not just about gender self-identity, but about the pernicious effect of Stonewall’s campaign promoting gender self-identity were genuine. We also found that these amounted to beliefs, not just opinions which might change with further evidence, because at the core of her opposition to Stonewall, frequently stated, was her understanding that their stance on gender theory – transwomen are women – a matter of their belief, underlay and was driving forward the erosion of women’s rights, access to single sex spaces and lesbian identity; it also underlay the characterisation of gender critical belief as transphobic and a hate crime, which was leading some to violence against gender critical believers.

And also:

292. Finally, we concluded that expressing hostility to Stonewall campaigning on the basis of gender self-identity did not seek to destroy the rights of others, in a way that would not be worthy of respect in a democratic society. It was part of the “dust and heat” (Milton: Areopagitica) generated by the conflict of opinion that must nonetheless be tolerated to avoid the greater evil of censorship.

293. We concluded that all the claimant’s pleaded beliefs, not just the belief that woman is sex not gender, are protected.

For goodness sake, accusing LGB people who want an organization to Centre their rights as ‘anti-trans’ is the same as the men who called women rights campaigners in the 70s ‘anti-men’.

Those 70s feminists were not anti men but anti misogyny. LGB are not anti trans, they are arguing against homophobic, lesbo phobic and misogynistic gender ideology and want to get back to a movement in which gays and lesbians can unashamedly call themselves exclusively same sex attracted.

Or to paraphrase, ‘some people are same sex attracted. Get over it’

Think you need to tell Nancy Kelly that. `perhaps you missed it? Funny that.

No it wouldn’t, @Hawkins003. Lesbian women are already being told they must ‘get over their genital preference’, and there are trans people talking about how to ‘break the cotton ceiling’ - ie. how to get into lesbian women’s knickers.

Basically, it is transphobic to be a biological woman who only wants sex with other biological women.

And yet trans women who call themselves lesbians are absolutely allowed to say they only want sex with biological females. They are allowed to reject trans-penis, but women are not.

See, this constant sniping at the LGB Alliance just goes to show that you really can't have anything without the T as the outrage at lesbians organising (with G and B) separately is off the scale.

Transphobia is rising at an alarming rate in our society. I find it surreal when people fail to see the parallels between the tactics of promoting homophobia and the fear of the unknown used against us in the past, and the ways that trans people are being talked about today. This fear mongering led to Section 28, and to the generations of LGBTQ+ people suffering because of those attitudes. Now, we’re seeing history repeat itself.
So we must push through this fear of the unknown. That’s why LGBTQ+ inclusive education in school is so vital – we must create a brighter future for young people who can know there is no shame in being a butch dyke like me, trans or non-binary, or whoever they grow up to be.

No. (1) there is no transphobia rising at an alarming rate, just people questioning why there has been no discussion and concerned about safeguarding the preponderance of girls wanting to transition versus the demands made by the very few entire males who want to be accepted as women. And questioning the hormone/surgical route for non-adults. Losing their jobs for questioning it. (2) it is nothing like the tactics of homophobic movements in the past apart from the conjuring up of predatory homosexuals. Despite that, homosexuality was made legal (lesbians were never illegal) over 50 years ago. Same sex marriage this century. There are still yards to go with making children comfortable in school including girls and boys being taught about respect. (3) of course that respect should apply to everyone of whatever sexual persuasion unless predatory eg the rise in the 70s of those supporting the idea children were sexual beings from birth.

@MerlinsLostMarbles the CEO Of stonewall said exclusive samesex attraction was “sexual racism” and an abhorrent prejudice akin to anti semitism. The BBC used the phrase “transphobic cis gay men” to describe gay men. Gay people are absolutely shamed for their exclusive same sex attraction

If lesbian's said they don't date anyone with penis's would that get around the anti trans label ?

That would be lovely if it's true, but I have never yet seen a single example of this so-called "trope" of lesbians being called anti-trans that doesn't define it as "won't accept male people as fellow-lesbians" so if examples can't readily be found then it's hardly a trope is it? Can you find an example?

OK, I mean accusing lesbians of being prejudice because they won't have sex with men is so much better isn't it, especially coming from the head of Stonewall. Because let's be honest that is what Kelley is talking about here. In her world TWAW and should be in the lesbian dating pool if that is how they identify

@MerlinsLostMarbles - do you think it is OK for a lesbian to refuse to have penis-in-vagina sex with a biological male, even if he does ‘identify’ as a woman and a lesbian?

Are you comfortable with the idea of the cotton ceiling - ie. lesbian women’s knickers - and trans women sharing tips on how to breach it - ie. how to manipulate, cajole or pressure lesbians into having sex with them?

@aseriesofstillimages I am sure lesbians are ok about having transwomen in their community and welcome them but not when being asked to have sex with entire males. And, like most natal women, many if not most will be disturbed about single sex spaces, no women-only rape clinics, sports competition (Navratilova) ... lesbians are women.

Lesbians aren't anti trans. But the very definition of being a lesbian is same sex (female) attracted. Not same gender. That's not anti anything. It's a sexual preference. That's it.

Except they're not are they, in practical reality. There's no space that male people won't try to insert themselves into. Especially if it's clearly and publicly identified as lesbian and therefore female only.

I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc.

--

Fact: LGB Alliance supports trans rights
We fully support trans people in their struggle, for dignity, respect and a life lived free from bigotry and fear. We believe that the issues and priorities for people who are attracted to the same sex (homosexual/bisexual) are different from those of transgender people, and so, with a number of organisations focused on trans people and trans issues, our focus is simply on lesbians, gay men, and bisexual people instead.

https://lgballiance.org.uk/facts/

The only people I've seen calling lesbians ''anti-trans'' are heterosexual blokes who think slapping on some lipstick means lesbians should suddenly desire their dick.

And lets not forget Nancy Kelley telling homosexuals to have a long, hard think about how ''societal prejudices have shaped your attractions''.

And who was it from Garden Court Chambers that said lesbians who won't sleep with men who identify as women is apartheid?

So if this lesbophobic trope is bothering you Marbles, pop over to a TRA forum and tell them to stop it then 🤷

People are free to exclude whoever they want from their friendship groups.

@aseriesofstillimages which is fine and great for her and her lesbian friends if they are happy with mixed sex environments. But consent from one group is not consent for all. There are clearly many lesbians who do not want male people in their spaces. They are not "anti" anything for wanting and expecting that, if that's their choice.

She did not use the term “sexual racist”. She said:

”If you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it’s worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.”

Do you think it’s racist if, for example, a black person isn’t attracted to white people, or vice versa?

A colleague of mine who’s a lesbian wrote a really interesting blog for Lesbian Visibility Week about how misleading this idea is that all/ the majority of lesbians don’t want trans women in their spaces and object to them identifying as lesbians. She said all the lesbians she knows are welcoming of trans women in their community.

I think the term Nancy Kelley used for lesbians not wanted to have sex with men was sexual racist

I disagree.

I recall Nancy Kelly calling lesbians who reject males as partners 'sexual racists.'