Is Diane Abbott right that only Black people experience racism and other ethnic groups experience prejudice?

I agree. I think this is part of the problem.

"Race" is a very fluid definition. At the risk of outing myself - I am very mixed race. I get to tick three categories in the usual Ethnic Monitoring forms (which is apparently one too many for the NHS to cope with even for medical screening). I am also a Jew by conversion. My children, who are half-Ashkenazi Jewish from their father, therefore fall into at least four ethnic categories in these surveys. Frankly, this is the point at which it feels slightly pointless putting these labels on ourselves.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Jews as a whole are a ethno-religious group so we do not fit neatly into any one category. Left to ourselves, we would best describe ourselves as a 'people'.

"Racism", on the other hand, is very real. In the sense of discrimination against someone because of their perceived 'racial', ethnic or geographic origin. I know this definition is contested, but if you asked the average person on the street this is still what they would consider racism to be.

Some of the posts here about DNA and genetics and how they map onto different ethnic categories (including Jews) are fascinating. However, they also miss the point. Racism exists regardless of whether 'race' is a meaningful biological category. What DA termed 'white people with points of difference' (apparently Jews, Irish and Travellers) can and have definitely been the victims of racism.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but what is particularly galling about DA's comments is that a fair chunk of recent high-profile antisemitic incidents have actually been committed by black and brown-skinned people against Jews. This includes a fatal shooting at a New Jersey kosher supermarket by a gunman linked to the Black Hebrew Israelite movement (the BHI mentioned by a PP) and, more relevant, abuse and assaults against Jews in Stamford Hill (DA's constituency). If you don't believe me, go take a look at the Shomrim Stamford Hill twitter thread.

Ironically, this means that as a brown-skinned woman in a headscarf, I get privilege by 'passing' in some settings where my more visibly Jewish friends can't.

Oh well.

@puffyisgood

Cannot answer your question in any detail - will leave that to AP5Diva but broadly

as jewishness is an ethno-religious rather than racial construct the two things can be true at the same time

ie
in a) jewish people from all those places share common DNA and culture/religion

and
in b) jews and palestinians share some DNA in common but not culture/religion

Hope that's helpful rather than confusing

'Race' doesn't exist in the sense that was believed by e.g. certain early 19th century scientists who busied themselves travelling the globe collecting/measuring human skulls and drawing wild inferences from these measurements, drawing bright lines between groups of people, etc. It obviously exists in the sense that any of us could today be transported to a rural setting in any of e.g. China/Iceland/Nigeria and immediately know which was which based on the way that people look, and more broadly in the way that variations in people's recent ancestry translate into certain tendencies (not bright lines or hard and fast rules) to on average be more likely to look a certain way.

"Race" doesn't really exist, does it?

And I'm not trying to deny racism, by the way, which definitely exists.

• I also meant 'East European jew' in the first post. hastily swiped on a phone.

'paediatrician' obviously an autocorrect.

I suppose these days the idea of discrete 'races' isn't very widely accepted... having a little bit of common ancestry of one thing, but is it really simultaneously true that:

(a) a south european jew, an east european, a middle eastern jew and an ethiopian jew are so closely related as to be categorically of the same 'race'; but

(b) (e.g.) a middle eastern jew and a pediatrician Palestinian are so far apart genetically as to be categorically not of the same 'race'?

I ask in ignorance.

Here is link to the study
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373

Sorry for bold fails.

@AG247

I don’t know what “BHI” is so forgive me for ignoring it.

”First you said there is no Jewish ethnicity, or tried to dispute it by claiming that any science you had seen backed up a ‘lack of ethnicity’ - that Jews were just a religion.” No, I did not say anything of the sort. See screenshot. I said from the start of this topic that Jewish is both a race and a religion.

“Now you’re arguing that actually Jews descend from North Africa - which inevitably to you is sub Saharan Africa.” Yes the Jewish ethnicity originates in North Africa based on the studies that go the furthest back in time to date- 3,500 to 4,000yrs ago. But also no, I’ve not confused North Africa with subSaharan Africa.

“I have no issue with this on the face of things, however there is NO actual scientific evidence to back up such claim, which I’m sure you know well.” Actually there is quite a bit of genetic scientific evidence backing this up. I explained in another post that for some reason it’s been recent practice that a snapshot of where everyone was 2,000yrs ago can be called their “origins” when it comes to genetic studies. Obviously humans migrated around quite a lot before then and there are genetic studies that go back further than that.

“I can tell you the majority of jews do not have sub Saharan DNA. I do, for the simple fact that I am also mixed with indigenous North African DNA (Berber) and so have a sprinkling of West African dna - however this is not typical of most jews, and I don’t know why you’re claiming it is?”*

The DNA tests you are familiar with likely do not go back far enough in time. Most commercial ethnicity/ancestry tests only go back 200-500yrs ago as to where your ancestors were in recent centuries. Most scientific studies, target no further than 2,000 yrs ago- which is the time period of the studies showing the Levant as the ‘“origin” homeland. Only a few scientific studies go back further than that. All the studies are true, you just need to keep in mind what time period they are reflecting.

My comment regarding subSaharan DNA was based on a well known study which is even mentioned on Wikipedia- “In 2011, Moorjani et al. detected 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations (Ashkenazi Jews, Syrian Jews, Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Greek Jews, Turkish Jews, Italian Jews) that they analyzed. The timing of this African admixture among all Jewish populations was identical. The exact date was not determined, but it was estimated to have taken place between 1,600 and 3,400 years ago. Although African admixture was determined among South Europeans and Near Eastern population too, this admixture was found to be younger compared to the Jewish populations. This findings the authors explained as evidence regarding common origin of these 8 main Jewish groups. "It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews—who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago share the signal of African admixture. A parsimonious explanation for these observations is that they reflect a history in which many of the Jewish groups descend from a common ancestral population which was itself admixed with Africans, prior to the beginning of the Jewish diaspora that occurred in 8th to 6th century BC" the authors concluded. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

“Your comments suggest an ulterior motive or undertone which I have commonly experienced with BHI groups who use claims to diminish Jewish identity ethnicity and/or claim that we have stolen their identity. I hope I’m just mistaken, and if so, I apologise in advance.” Apology accepted.

“There is absolutely no historical data to back many of the claims you have made here on this sub, on behalf of Jewish people of whom I am certain you are not a part of.” *I would disagree. The Bronze Age collapse 1300-1100BC happened all around the Mediterranean about the time when the Jewish peoples left Egypt (North Africa) estimated at 1300 BC and per the covenant of Abraham, Moses leads the Jewish people to the “Promised Land” or Canaan (in the Levant) which Genesis clearly says is not their “native land” and they conquered and settle there (for which there is ample archaeological evidence of the Phoenicians being replaced by the. Kingdoms of Israel and Judah by the incoming Jewish tribes). This is known to have historically happened even if you don’t believe the Torah.

This migration to Canaan occurred over a thousand years prior to the time period most “origin” DNA studies look at including the ones that say Jewish and Palestinians are both from the Levant because the definition being used of where is an ethnicity from, is where were their ancestors 2,000 yrs ago not 4,000yrs ago or further back.

“We all originally (allegedly) come from Africa but this is not singular to Jews and does not take away from their ethnic and genetic makeup, of which the majority is shared between most communities.” Yes but that’s going back much much further to 50,000 to 70,000 years ago and shouldn’t be confused with where people were 2,000yrs ago compared to 4,000yrs ago.

Abbott is full of 'pity me' shit

@AP5Diva this sounds like a BHI argument. First you said there is no Jewish ethnicity, or tried to dispute it by claiming that any science you had seen backed up a ‘lack of ethnicity’ - that Jews were just a religion. Now you’re arguing that actually Jews descend from North Africa - which inevitably to you is sub Saharan Africa. I have no issue with this on the face of things, however there is NO actual scientific evidence to back up such claim, which I’m sure you know well.

Aside from being a Jew (or rather genetically half via a parent), I also have a degree in Jewish and Middle Eastern Ancient History. I can tell you the majority of jews do not have sub Saharan DNA. I do, for the simple fact that I am also mixed with indigenous North African DNA (Berber) and so have a sprinkling of West African dna - however this is not typical of most jews, and I don’t know why you’re claiming it is? Your comments suggest an ulterior motive or undertone which I have commonly experienced with BHI groups who use claims to diminish Jewish identity ethnicity and/or claim that we have stolen their identity. I hope I’m just mistaken, and if so, I apologise in advance.

There is absolutely no historical data to back many of the claims you have made here on this sub, on behalf of Jewish people of whom I am certain you are not a part of.

If by ‘north Africa’ you are referring to Egypt then there may be some truth to the claim, however the Israelites descend from the levant and there are no major studies otherwise to dispute that fact. We all originally (allegedly) come from Africa but this is not singular to Jews and does not take away from their ethnic and genetic makeup, of which the majority is shared between most communities.

I've never understood why this woman was seemingly such a success in politics, she has shown herself to have questionable beliefs.

DD1 was the only white child at her day nursery in the late '90s (we and Eleanor, the manager, were hopeful that other white parents would follow our lead because up until then everyone in our position had backed out.) Sadly, that didn't happen in the time that our daughter was there. But she did get lots of negative comments from the other little kids about her skin (and eye) colour. The staff were great, but don't tell me that racism (or discrimination if you will) goes only one way.

David Baddiel is guilty of racist behaviour himself- offensive racist jokes about a black footballer and calling people “pikies” (apologies for repeating it). Just horrible. His apologies for this seemed like damage control before the broadcast of his documentary.

He says that anti black racism and other isms are taken more seriously than antisemitism and it is a spurious argument. There is no point in comparison and I wish he would stop.

Here is the close up of the label

It is. The dark history of racism in the US is astounding.
The Levi’s thing is something I only recently learned from this article when a pair of 1880s Levi’s jeans found at the bottom of a mine were auctioned off.
https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2022/oct/15/vintage-denim-jeans-chinese-exclusion-white-labor

That's astonishing!

Joly- It could still have been a draft. The article says she emailed it in, then got a reply asking for her postal address. She then 3hrs after the initial sending of it resent it with her postal address. It’s so easy to attach the wrong file or forward what you already sent and just put the postal address in the email body.

The article only really answers the question that they ensured the letter really came from Diane Abbot.

It doesn’t matter to me that it was a draft letter though. It still shows what she thought strongly enough to write in the first place.

But why did she pretend it was a draft and row back?

If she was daring Starmer to suspend her for political reasons why not own the contents of the letter?

Unless she lost her bottle after publication?

I actually think it may be a combination of the both actually! But yes, fascinating !

No apology needed. I’m happy I’m not the only one who saw that report.

@AP5Diva Sorry, I posted that before seeing your post!

Not only that, it's now came to light she sent the letter twice, 3 hours apart, from her own email account. A week before it was published. I think it's perfectly fair to assume she has done so with with ulterior motives. I mean, she's been speaking out against her colleagues deemed to be in the centre or right of the party, for a long time now. She had a childish pop at Streeting just the day before. She blames them - and (((others))) for 'Jeremy's' downfall.