Transwomen can't be a subset of women

How depressing to define women as people who are oppressed by men. That's not how I define myself.

And it rather begs the question of why any man would choose to identify as a woman.

PS - male people cannot experience misogyny.

MishyJDI · Today 09:16

I would say we have a lot in common with TW. Misogyny and the experience of that as a start. TW are seen as women. They are treated as women. Society treats them the same - though arguably worse, as they are also mocked by cis women.

I don't agree. TW may see themselves as women, but I genuinely don't think that they are seen as women by the public at large. I expect that their friendship group will validate them to be kind but even they will know the truth. A TW will never know what it is like to navigate the world as a woman, just as I will never know what it is like to navigate the world as a TW.

And as TW are not seen as women, they are not treated the same as women, they are treated as men who want us to pretend that they are something they are not. It is up to an individual whether they choose to go along with that or not.

Umm… no. They do not experience misogyny because they are not female. Only females experience misogyny. Males would experience something completely different. Are you saying a woman who has never experience misogyny is not a woman? Because unless all women and all males with a trans identity have experienced misogyny, and no female with a trans identity has, then your point is invalid. For males with a trans identity to be a subset of women, you must show a characteristic that all males with a trans identity share in common with all women and that they do not share with men or females with a trans identity.

I wish we could just keep it genetically relevant.

no amount of surgery, make up or clothing will change the fact we are either a female or a male.

im not a women because I wear make up, have long hair, breasts, and wear what society class as feminine clothing. I’m a women because I have eggs and can carry and create life with the use of a sperm.
If I made my hair short and made myself look masculine I’m still a women.

identifying as something doesn’t mean that’s what we are.

ill always respect how someone chooses to dress and live their life, but talking to people these days is becoming impossible without causing offence.

Ah yes, that well known trans logic phenomena. They're exactly the same, and you don't know they're there, even though you treat them completely differently.

It's like Rachel Dolezal, a trans-black woman is part of a subset of black women. I imagine that most black women would be pretty irritated by that.

This totally.

You, personally, might have much in common with males with trans identities, but women as a collective do not.

Those individuals are not seen as ‘women’ except by a minority. The polls confirm this time and time again. As does most organisations making policy when it comes to the finer points.

Even UK prison services do not see these individuals as ‘women’. This has been proven. So your continued attempts at portraying society and government as seeing them as women is false and has been for a while.

I would say we have a lot in common with TW. Misogyny and the experience of that as a start. TW are seen as women. They are treated as women. Society treats them the same - though arguably worse, as they are also mocked by cis women.

yes if the original set is "people who love getting their nails done" and the sorting is by declared response to the question "what is your Gender Identity?" "TW" "NB" "Cis women" "None / other / prefer not to say" might be sensible sub sets. Outside of maybe market research for a nail salon though that might not be a super helpful question

You are correct. Trans women can't be a subset of women because all trans women are biological men.

I guess that at a push, and if needs must, trans women are a subset of men. But really, they're just men.

This.

Many men have fetishes. It's hardly rare. Likewise effeminate men, confused gay men suffering from homophobia, internal or external (exacerbated by trans ideology).

It's hardly unusual for men to be sexually driven, to enjoy dominating women, to get a kick out of intimidating them.

Far from being a subset, transwomen are just common or garden men who've found a new way to oppress women. The only difference, this time, is they've managed to bill it as being progressive.

*your

@literalviolence you silly thing, you’re little lady brain has obviously NOT thought about hair, nails, shoes and handbags. Surely that’s what makes a woman?!

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

I agree with @NecessaryScene - the TW sub set works if the definition of woman is "people who think they are women (using their own interpretation of the word "woman)".

Of course, the largest sub set of that group would be women defining themselves biologically, outnumbering the TW sub set by at least 2 billion people.

This stuff only matters because women's bodies are entirely different to males' and thus have entirely different medical and social needs.

Yes. And their needs as such will be 'different' compared to other groups of women based on the medical requirements they have which was the initial point of intersectionality. The group that get most overlooked imo is any girl/ woman born into poverty. And any girl/ woman who's been sexually abused.

Somewhere along the line oppression Olympics came along and simplistic heirarchies imagined which isn't straight forward pigeonholing.

But people treat it as basic eyfs sorting as if sorting shapes and colours.

It should be based on needs and vulnerabilities. All women are more vulnerable than any male for 100s of reasons due to sex.

That's basically why Helen Joyce got so into this; her PhD in mathematics told her it's was lunacy based on mathematical categories and sorting, even at higher complex genetic levels. .

Sorting starts in the early years.

You don't need a PhD to get this.

It can also be seen as racist when TRAs list off 'subsets' of women and plonk white makes next to blank women as being ultra repressed.

TransMEN are a subset of women surely?

The "subset" thing works as long as the definition of woman is "people who say they're women".

Transwomen are a subset of people who say they're women.

But then you're built on top of a circular definition.

Eventually it reduces to "transwomen are people who say they're 'women'" where the people saying that are each using a different definition.

They're a subset of people using a word, not a subset of a concrete group.

English conversations are a subset of chats. And French cats are also a subset of chats, if you define "chats" as "things using the word chat". But that's not a coherent statement about the world, it's a statement about language.

Sorry, that should have been cis women and trans women. Need more coffee.