Small NHS victory - posted to celebrate and encourage others

Thanks Op and don't feel discouraged that there's not a surge of similar stories. Please keep chip chip chipping away.
Every little helps, as the woman who weed in the sea said....

Thanks for that Redtoothbrush. I saw Dr Hakeem interviewed recently about his book and he came across very well.

This is an amazing post, a real lightbulb moment for me!

Exactly.

We NEED to get back to just plain old boring sex. Throw gender (with option to put 'do not belief in gender') in if you must but we NEED to have sex.

Can't see sex, can't see sexism. Sexism isn't to do with how you dress and present.

I’m wondering if we can do better than the phrase “assigned at birth”, though. Please correct me if I’m wrong
We can!! It's observed at birth not assigned. No sorting hat needed. It's really easy!

Or just "sex?" would do. It doesn't have to be observed or assigned, it just IS. And it IS at any time of your life, not just at birth. A person's sex can never change no matter what gender (or none) they think they are.

I'm just reading DeTrans by Dr AZ Hakeem and its fascinating to read back comments here about an inability to understand the world in certain ways displayed by a lot of trans people because of the huge correlation with autism.

The way he describes it, it sounds a lot like its almost a social communication version of not developing the concept of object permanence. Object permanence is understanding that an object still exists even if you can't see it - think babies who get very excited at peek a boo because they don't grasp that you are still there the whole time.

Instead he says that trans people with autism lack a 'theory of mind' - the inability to really discern what another person with who they are interacting is thinking combined with black and white thinking - which leads to them living by rules which they decide to be right and expect others to see the world as they do, and if others don't follow their own rules they get very upset and think everyone else is wrong.

This taken to the extreme means that they have very black and white ideas of what males and females should look like and how they should behave and divide the world up in this way. They then decide that because they like or do things for the opposite sex they therefore ARE the other sex. And everyone else sees the world in the same way. A bit like a baby who thinks cos they can't see an object, it no longs exists and that no one else can see it either.

He proposes that this goes as far as thinking that once they are 'presenting' as the opposite sex by these stereotypes they pass and because they haven't got the concept of the rest of the world thinking differently, they believe that everyone else sees them as the opposite sex simply because they've put on the corresponding clothing regardless of the other glaringly obvious clues to sex.

In their heads it IS all about them and what they think. If they think that putting on make up makes them look female then every one else will perceive them in the same way. Regardless of all the other things that mark their sex being obvious.

Its just about how they organise the world - so affirmation is probably just about the worst thing you can do, rather than unpick this and teach that things are not gendered. If this is all true, to affirm at all in a medical capacity isn't just irresponsible its actively grossly negligent and discriminatory.

The fact we have numerous posters who can not conceive that sex discrimination relates to biological function they don't have and will affect everything from the design of things to impact on everyday life rather than presentation and stereotypes, really really highlights the point. We've seen so many examples all saying and doing the same thing. Its fascinating to see in real world play outs.

We CAN NOT order the world along these lines because it doesn't reflect reality and how the world works - it only reflects the beliefs of people who can't see things from the perspective of others.

By definition this is about as far removed from being inclusive as it is possible to be.

Oh well, it’s not all about you and your struggles with reality, as I’m sure you understand, right?

Alpha Trans doesn't understand much of what's important.

Exactly. They need bloody therapy, not having their mental illness indulged in.

I’m past caring about the ‘discomfort’ of people who can’t deal with reality.

The solution to their ‘discomfort’ is therapy, not trying to force society to affirm their delusions.

You can never escape what you are and where you come from.

I do think that not being at peace with this is a massive issue. People who have issues with this - for whatever reason - are much more likely to have mental health problems and they are much more likely to take those insecurities and self loathing out on others.

I worry about talk of a 'conversion therapy ban' which will remove even the possibility of dealing with internalised issues because of the suspicion of its intention. It's such bollocks and wholly damaging to all.

This interaction has led me to some other 5am thoughts.

Firstly, I forgot to say thank you and congratulations to @IwantToRetire and all the rest of us carrying out this slow campaign. I’ve long thought that part of the problem we face is how loudly transactivists shout for what they want to see and persistence in objecting is the only way this will be resolved.

The other is that, in attempting to “cure” gender dysphoria by avoiding telling a tiny number of people the truth or insisting that they face up to the truth, the rest of us are expected to enter into an equivalent mental state, where we are the ones continually faced with having to tell what we see as lies about ourselves.

The cure for a sickness should never, ever require the entire world to lie, to be “kind” or otherwise. It’s simply not sustainable. And ultimately it’s not kind either, because you can’t control the entire world. This then leads those with dysphoria still in a permanent state of worry about being correctly sexed while still leaving the rest of us deeply troubled because we are being forced into a situation we recognize does not reflect reality.

I find being asked for my “gender” and “gender identity” really uncomfortable because I don’t have either and despise being forced into stating something that is literally a lie.

The fact that you find stating reality difficult suggests that the medical treatment you are receiving isn’t adequate as it doesn’t allow you to live comfortably with the world as it is, rather than as you wish it was. Perhaps you need a new therapist to help you come to terms with your continued fear of who you actually are?

@Cattenberg
I’m wondering if we can do better than the phrase “assigned at birth”, though. Please correct me if I’m wrong,
We can!! It's observed at birth not assigned. No sorting hat needed. It's really easy!

Ok it’s fine to insult millions of women with gender guff, as long as the sacred caste don’t get hurty feels

I can understand that. I remember a thread during the last census where a trans woman wrote that she would find it really difficult to describe herself as “male”, but that selecting “male” as her birth sex wasn’t too bad.

I’m wondering if we can do better than the phrase “assigned at birth”, though. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought this dated back to the days when babies born with ambiguous genitalia were “assigned” a sex by doctors based on what physical appearance could be achieved by surgery.

Now that most doctors have access to ultrasound scans and chromosome tests and are aware that adults with DSDs often regret the surgery they underwent in childhood to “normalise” their appearance, does this phrase still make sense?

Every survey I do , I wedge in a comment such as gender is a misogynistic social construct. Or keep prisons single sex. Or trans woman are men.

i how that the people who want to know about their customers pay attention to it
well done OP

I find it inappropriate to ask me my gender, when gender is a load of sexist stereotypes, whereas my sex is relevant to most situations. Not just medical ones.

Why?

Simply because for no other reason the world is designed to default male requirements rather than for women.

If the world were designed with women in mind, door handles would be lower, mobile phones would be smaller.... invisible woman is a great fucking book.

I have to say the sheer entitlement of saying you don't like being asked your sex really spells out how you have no idea how sex affects womens' every day lives in the most mundane ways. And how you think we should all do things your way cos you know best and we should all obey.

But y'know if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism. That's kinda the point for you though isn't it? You can't be held accountable for your sexism...

There are a whole bunch of really valid and important reasons to record sex. It is the very height of sexism to be oblivious to these reasons.

If you want an option to record your gender belief then I've no issue with that, as long as it's ok for me to also have an option that I don't share in this belief and don't believe in having a gender identity because I don't believe in sexism, without being hounded for it.

In short: It's. Not. All. About. You.

@AlphaTransWoman it's really important to record bio sex data because women and men have different needs based on their physical differences. It's also really important to record, for example where crimes are committed, so that we keep a sense of realism as regards to potential risks posed by either sex.

I do think it's also important to record gender identity alongside this. With an option to say not applicable because most people don't have one..

Your comfort is really not as important as all the above.

Well, don't ask, then.

I have to say I find it inappropriate to ask anyone their biological sex unless absolutely necessary, eg for medical purposes. I find misgendering myself in that way deeply uncomfortable.

thanks for the update

Well done. I will continue to scribble on nonsensical forms in the hope they also get changed!