Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
27
Happylittlechicken · 18/04/2023 19:33

So at what point does a cross dressing male become a Male with a trans identity? Why is one excluded from the WI but not the other? Would Pips Bunce be allowed in or not? What about gender fluid people?

Roadtrips · 18/04/2023 19:30

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:42

'Lord Hague told Times Radio: “There are some areas where there’s been a danger of going too fast – competitive sport is one of them. And world athletics has made clear that women’s sport can’t be transgender, otherwise it would be the end of women’s sport. And I think that is quite right.”

But he added: “I’m not sure that applies to the Women’s Institute, though, you know there are transgender people, they have changed their gender. This is part of our society now.

“And I think large national organisations like the WI have to get over that and get used to that, and welcome new people.
“So that would be the side of the argument I’m on.”
He added: “I’ll probably get a lot of angry letters now from WI members but I would be on that side of the argument.”'

If anyone can be arsed sending the wee scrote an 'angry letter', you can probably get him at his gentlemen's club.

Kirstie Allsop would get on well with him.

Bosky · 18/04/2023 19:09

If two males perform the same amount and type of cross-dressing in their daily lives and one claims to be trans then that person is covered by the Protected Characteristic of Gender Reassignment.

If challenged they would only need to say, for example, that at some point in the future they propose to change the name on their gas bill to Tiffany.

Since the magical sex metamorphosis can start with nothing more than adopting stereotypical clothing and cosmetic appearance, just wearing nail varnish could be used as evidence that they are covered by the PC of Gender Reassignment - because they have started to "live as a woman" from the fingertips backwards.

As well as appearance, "Other attributes of sex" could mean, for example, "behaving like a woman", such as joining the WI, or "doing woman-things" such as other people calling you by female pronouns.

The whole thing is nonsensical.

EA2010 - Section 7 - Gender Reassignment

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7?timeline=false&view=plain

The Women's Institute faces revolt ...
JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 18/04/2023 17:12

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:33

And I do think the policy potentially discriminates against men who are "cross dressers", as it would against any man other than one who says he's a transwoman.
Either there is a claim for it to be single sex or there's not.

Cross dressing isn't a protected characteristic, so it is fine to discriminate against cross dressers.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, but people get very confused about how to apply the equality act to gender reassignment.

Correct application would mean that transmen have to be admitted to the WI but transwomen don't have to be. This is why the free masons don't throw out men who transition.

tootiredtobother · 18/04/2023 17:09

very well said Esmacannonball

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2023 16:52

Whaeanui · 18/04/2023 13:06

The WI isn't just about jam and knitting, it's always been very involved in women's education and feminist campaigning. Single-sex spaces for women aren't just about physical safety and bodily privacy, there's a political and social aspect to them too. Imagine if, for example, union members were never allowed to meet unless at least one of the bosses was present too.

This^^ honestly the jam and baking comment was a little rude and misogynistic.

It was deliberately rude and misogynist. It's how the WI is perceived and if it goes to court / media battles that's where the counter argument to single sex provision is going to be thrown at it...

The WI have to demonstrate they have a legitimate aim and purpose in being single sex that goes beyond simple companionship between biological women because the whole premise of the EA protected status for gender reassignment is about social acceptance and not being discriminated against. Women have to demonstrate a need based on biological disadvantage as to why an exemption would be appropriate, fair and proportionate.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 18/04/2023 16:44

I read the article when it was in the WI members ‘ magazine some time ago. I was then an active member of the WI. ( I left because I moved house, not because of this controversy, although I haven’t joined any of my three local groups , and I don’t intend to until this is resolved)

It doesn’t say anywhere why Petra wanted to join the WI. There’s nothing about the ( many and varied) activities and meetings , nothing about the educational courses which were offered before lockdown, nothing about the very real charitable and caring work which groups do in their local towns and villages, nothing about the campaigns which the WI have initiated and supported about issues such as FGM ,maternal leave, or domestic violence refuges.

It’s all just about how great it is for Petra to be recognised as a woman. I presume it is nice for Petra’s spouse , who is very active and respected in the WI at local and National level, to have her spouse with her at meetings (though most members can bear to be separated from their partners for a few hours , just for a change) .

I hope this post is inoffensive. It reflects my experience as a member of the WI

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 16:34

Well, now that Caroline Nokes and William Hague have told women to stop being so jolly horrible and to just be quiet and let the transwomen do what they want, I'm sure everything will settle down and be lovely again, and women can sit back and listen like good girls to all the new exciting stories from women with much more interesting histories than our boring old bog standard cunty ones.

https://twitter.com/timesradio/status/1648240070602936321?s=12

https://twitter.com/timesradio/status/1648240070602936321?s=12

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 16:32

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:35

Is that two blokes talking about who woman should let into their spaces?

Of course. They'll know best.

OP posts:
Grammarnut · 18/04/2023 16:23

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2023 08:36

This is one area I don't think would be covered by the Equality Act exemptions tbh.

You'd have to demonstrate a need for women to bake cakes and make jam without the presence of males. I think you would potentially struggle.

You would be able to prevent transwomen from going to a WI residential but not necessarily from other social groups unless they could demonstrate a legitimate aim from being single sex.

So a kayaking session for women because of the difference in levels of physical ability and how women are deterred from participating in sport in the presence of stronger males who have been socialised differently MIGHT just get away with it but I am struggling to think of a specific legitimate aim the WI are trying to achieve that would be deemed proportionate in a court.

The WI does not just bake cakes - how patronising. And if women want to do that - or anything - with no males present why should they not?

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:35

Mammillaria · 18/04/2023 12:29

Petra seems like a genuinely kind soul, but 65(?) years of testosterone and male socialisation is inescapable and Petra's presence will, unfortunately, change the dynamic of women's-only spaces.

Is that two blokes talking about who woman should let into their spaces?

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:33

And I do think the policy potentially discriminates against men who are "cross dressers", as it would against any man other than one who says he's a transwoman.
Either there is a claim for it to be single sex or there's not.

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 18/04/2023 14:30

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:42

'Lord Hague told Times Radio: “There are some areas where there’s been a danger of going too fast – competitive sport is one of them. And world athletics has made clear that women’s sport can’t be transgender, otherwise it would be the end of women’s sport. And I think that is quite right.”

But he added: “I’m not sure that applies to the Women’s Institute, though, you know there are transgender people, they have changed their gender. This is part of our society now.

“And I think large national organisations like the WI have to get over that and get used to that, and welcome new people.
“So that would be the side of the argument I’m on.”
He added: “I’ll probably get a lot of angry letters now from WI members but I would be on that side of the argument.”'

If anyone can be arsed sending the wee scrote an 'angry letter', you can probably get him at his gentlemen's club.

I'm sure he'll be supporting all the transmen who want to join the free masons too then 🤔

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:30

Thank you!

OP posts:
ResisterRex · 18/04/2023 14:28

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:21

Oh, Hansard from 2004-2006 seems to not exist. Odd.

'Hansard content from 2004 to 2006 is currently unavailable on this website'

And I can't find it on the links given, either.

Try here

api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/index.html

Here's one with part of the GRA debate
api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2004/feb/11/gender-recognition

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:21

Oh, Hansard from 2004-2006 seems to not exist. Odd.

'Hansard content from 2004 to 2006 is currently unavailable on this website'

And I can't find it on the links given, either.

OP posts:
EsmaCannonball · 18/04/2023 14:21

So William Hague wants to deprive women of freedom of association but personally enjoys the freedom of association between rich, well-connected men. What a shock.

We are living in a time when every organisation women founded for themselves is being colonised by men and women are having to spend time, effort and money to re-found those organisations, all the while being called bigots and (special) man-haters for doing so. We think we've progressed but we are just fighting the same battles against a more devious opponent.

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:12

1989 elected as MP, in HoC til 2015. So I would think he was there, although can't find record of his vote.

https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpid=40499&dmp=826

William Hague compared to 'Homosexuality - Equal rights'

https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?dmp=826&mpid=40499

OP posts:
MissPollysFitDolly · 18/04/2023 13:56

Would Hague have been in parliament when they decided to deny transmen the right to inherit titles? I wonder what his stance on that is.

OP posts:
OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:42

'Lord Hague told Times Radio: “There are some areas where there’s been a danger of going too fast – competitive sport is one of them. And world athletics has made clear that women’s sport can’t be transgender, otherwise it would be the end of women’s sport. And I think that is quite right.”

But he added: “I’m not sure that applies to the Women’s Institute, though, you know there are transgender people, they have changed their gender. This is part of our society now.

“And I think large national organisations like the WI have to get over that and get used to that, and welcome new people.
“So that would be the side of the argument I’m on.”
He added: “I’ll probably get a lot of angry letters now from WI members but I would be on that side of the argument.”'

If anyone can be arsed sending the wee scrote an 'angry letter', you can probably get him at his gentlemen's club.

OP posts:
OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:33

And to be honest, if Petra knows that their presence upsets women, or even causes women to self exclude, then how is that 'lovely'?

What makes Petra different from any other male?

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:32

I'm sure Petra may well be lovely. (And it seems 'WI HQ' are standing behind Petra, metaphorically).

Many women are lovely, too. And many women want space and time to themselves without males being present. Even women who live with males sometimes appreciate single-sex company, believe it or not.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread