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Original poster

Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

867 replies

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 14:59

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Giggorata · 04/04/2023 16:45

Not accepting the belief.. etc

oh for an edit button.

Chersfrozenface · 04/04/2023 16:44

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:37

But they are all put under the same umbrella by many on this board.

Show quote history

I don't think they are, particularly, on this board

Though they are by Stonewall.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 16:44

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 16:42

For anyone who is uncomfortable posting on a feminist board about 'sex and gender', then here is the 'chat' board. It was specifically asked for a while back by posters who were unhappy with what are often called 'gc' views.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism

And there is also

LGBT Children

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/lgbt_children

and LGBT Parents

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/lgbt_parents

Mumsnet is a big website!

LGBT parents | Gay & lesbian parenting forum | Mumsnet | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/lgbt_parents

Giggorata · 04/04/2023 16:44

Pile ons = a lot of posters disagree with you

Demonising trans people = it accepting the beliefs that people can change sex

Feminism = centering biological women

etc, etc.

nilsmousehammer · 04/04/2023 16:42

There is incidentally the whole of the rest of the internet where trans activism and anti-women activism is warmly welcomed. Reddit as mentioned. This is the only place in which women are permitted to equally have a voice regarding women's rights. For example I find it interesting that it is unacceptable to point out that engaging with activism and protecting individuals with dodgy associations and behaviours regarding children leads to questions about yourself, when it is wholly acceptable to question women for not denouncing KJK for speaking at events where someone disapproved of has been involved?

There is the whole of the feminism chat board to talk about issues without having to encounter unwanted information about women's rights regarding the impact of trans activism, that was the point of creating it. Although the women who insisted so much that they were desperate to talk about so many other aspects of feminism and have threads free of all this stuff seem oddly to not be using it much.

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 16:42

For anyone who is uncomfortable posting on a feminist board about 'sex and gender', then here is the 'chat' board. It was specifically asked for a while back by posters who were unhappy with what are often called 'gc' views.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism

Feminism chat | Mumsnet | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 16:42

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 16:19

How many replies have you made to me in the past hour demanding that I engage with you and do so immediately?

And because you’ve carried on in this increasingly frothing manner (while I do other things in my life besides engaging on a MN thread) with likeminded pp’s you feel that “we’ve established that OP doesn’t actually know what GC means”?

I don’t owe you an explanation of my own feminist beliefs or my perception of your feminist beliefs because I’m not interested in engaging with you on that. Not least because I see from responses to this thread the futility of engaging with people who will attack anyone who disagrees with them.

My request was to MN, which I have forwarded by other means, not to GC posters.

Show quote history

So, why start a thread if not to demonise and shame people who disagree with you?

Do you understand that you opening post has done just that?

Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility

toxic & intimidating all around.

unpleasant (for us) GC threads

A genuine question. Do you see the denigration of posters who disagree with you in your words here?

Do you honestly think that your posting this thread with these terms being used was going to receive a positive response? Why?

And if you also cannot work out how to use a discussion board site, and find out how to contact the owner to discuss this privately, that is a significant issue. And would then correspond with your failure to post respectfully within the talk guidelines.

Or, maybe you had other motives for starting a thread the way you have.

MNHQ
YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 04/04/2023 16:42

Folks - may we draw your attention to the civil discussion mentioned in our previous post? Disagree, by all means, but no personal attacks or troll hunting.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 04/04/2023 16:42

Gender is the social mechanism by which women are oppressed. How could a feminist be anything other than gender critical?

OldCrone · 04/04/2023 16:42

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:39

No? I am explaining why it can be difficult and offputting for anyone who isnt GC or disagrees with this section of feminism to join any discourse on this board.

Show quote history

If you're not a feminist and post on a feminist discussion board, you can expect to have a lot of people disagreeing with you.

If you're anti-feminism, perhaps a feminism forum isn't the place for you.

TheSingingBean · 04/04/2023 16:41

I'm genuinely interested to hear from non-GC feminists (although I have to agree that to my ears that is an oxymoron) because I struggle to understand the values and beliefs that inform a position that is comfortable with males identifying as women and is happy to adopt the term 'cis'.

(By the way, I am in no way threatened by 'cis', as Luna remarked earlier, but I find it insulting.)

I know tone isn't always easy to convey in text but I actually would like to hear from the posters that call themselves 'non-GC feminists' so I can better understand their world-view.

I am not being sarcastic or snarky. Neither am I agreeing that we need another section - I think this conversation is fine just where it is.

Eyerollcentral · 04/04/2023 16:41

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:37

But they are all put under the same umbrella by many on this board.

Show quote history

I don’t think they are tbh. In any event you have yet to provide an example of anyone demonising trans people. In your own example someone had called you a child molester (I haven’t seen the comment myself), and I am assuming you aren’t a trans person. It can often seem there is a lack of sincerity from many pro-trans commentators on this site and a reflex to using hyperbole in support of their arguments. When asked to provide facts to back up the wildly insulting things they are saying - and there was someone last night posting about ‘genocidal’ attacks on trans people - they tend to attack.

TeenDivided · 04/04/2023 16:41

stayathomer · 04/04/2023 16:35

I think the tone of this thread could be the reason the op would like a different place for people to post. Do you all hear yourselves? Would you allow your children to gang up on people the way you do? A lot of people stay away from the feminism part of mn exactly because of the behaviour on this thread, people demanding answers, scoffing, generally being hostile and horrible

I do think if someone asks for a specific board, they should be able to say what kind of threads they would have on it that aren't covered by the 2 feminism boards (and the LGBT children board).

I also think if someone says there have been threads that XYZ it isn't unreasonable of them to back that up with examples.

In my view, tone on threads (in general across all MN) tends to deteriorate when the OP only engages with posts supporting their view, and not those putting alternate views. The longer this goes on, the pushier the tone gets.

Also a number of posters on this specific board do tend to be very educated / incisive (not sure that's the right word) on feminism. So it's hardly surprising they can argue back coherently and firmly against weak 'be kind' / TWAW arguments.

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 16:40

Queenofscones · 04/04/2023 16:39

Ah. So someone posted something and no one agreed and explained why they disagreed clearly and assertively in the way many of us have done here for years, and now the poster wants a Be Kind board where they can post what they want and no one will disagree? Have I got that right?

Does this remind you of anything?

Yes, this was the exact argument used before to make the Feminist Chat board.

Why OP is not happy with that board has yet to be revealed.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 16:40

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:37

But they are all put under the same umbrella by many on this board.

Show quote history

Stonewall’s Umbrella, you mean?

JellySaurus · 04/04/2023 16:39

But they are all put under the same umbrella by many on this board.

They are all put under the same umbrella by Stonewall.

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:39

Eyerollcentral · 04/04/2023 16:37

You want to ration who can reply to posts. Sounds pretty controlling!

Show quote history

No? I am explaining why it can be difficult and offputting for anyone who isnt GC or disagrees with this section of feminism to join any discourse on this board.

Queenofscones · 04/04/2023 16:39

Ah. So someone posted something and no one agreed and explained why they disagreed clearly and assertively in the way many of us have done here for years, and now the poster wants a Be Kind board where they can post what they want and no one will disagree? Have I got that right?

Does this remind you of anything?

Happylittlechicken · 04/04/2023 16:38

But they are all put under the same umbrella by many on this board.

and by stonewall. So either they come under the trans umbrella or they don’t. Which is it?

JellySaurus · 04/04/2023 16:38

Inclusive, as in not preoccupied with demonising trans people as part of my feminist worldview. Inclusive as in not threatened by using the term cis to describe people like myself during discourse.

Nobody demonises trans-identifying people on the Feminism threads. We may demonise aggressive, fetishistic male people for their behaviour, but surely you realise that these men make life difficult for both women and trans-identifying people?

The GC view is consistently about safeguarding vulnerable people, particularly women and children.

As JK Rowling said:
^Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?^

Call yourself cis, if you like, but don’t dump that label on others who reject it. Call men women, if you like, but don’t expect that view to go unchallenged. Because that’s what you’re doing. You’re asking for a little corner of MN to be ringfenced for you to promote your exclusive philosophy. Who feels threatened here?

ConstanceOcean · 04/04/2023 16:37

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 04/04/2023 16:35

Timid as mice you say. All us women who have been marching, speaking, writing, crowd funding and campaigning for years are timid as mice.
Why are you so keen to portray women as weak? What narrative does that suit?

Show quote history

Where have I said women are weak?
I am a woman - why would I call myself weak?

Its the keyboard warriors that are weak.

Eyerollcentral · 04/04/2023 16:37

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:36

I don't think its necessary for 50 people to reply to one comment, no, not if they aren't adding anything useful or constructive to the conversation. It makes threads very tiresome to read and good points get lost in the drivel.

Show quote history

You want to ration who can reply to posts. Sounds pretty controlling!

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 16:37

Eyerollcentral · 04/04/2023 16:35

Right but drag queens and Jeffrey marsh aren’t trans. Drag queens are generally gay men who dress up as women for entertainment purposes. Jeffrey Marsh as I understand it is a (deeply creepy) non-binary person. So again I am asking where people have demonised trans individuals? Btw people are allowed to question things. Being non-binary or trans isn’t a get out of jail free card. Jeffrey Marsh’a conduct breaches every single safeguarding measure in the book, and he makes a living out of it. He should be questioned.

Show quote history

But they are all put under the same umbrella by many on this board.

PuttingDownRoots · 04/04/2023 16:37

I think the problem is calling it feminism. If you want a board for trans activism that would be a logical request.

I am a "terf" and "GC"... but also very pro trans rights (I.e. for people to live the life they want to without criticism... just don't consider people actually able to change sex and shouldn't be able to use those rights to abuse others for example sports, medical facilities and prisons)

Noicant · 04/04/2023 16:36

OP I think you are perfectly welcome to post whatever you want but I think you have to accept that women will have their own opinions on what you say. Feminism is for women it’s not for men, sex based differences are the key reason women have been oppressed across time and across cultures for millenia. Asking actual feminists to try to just ignore that bit is a bit much.

I’ve posted on posts where someone has a trans child, I’ve never felt anything but compassion for them and their family (especially their kid). If someone can find a thread where such a parent has been treated shabbily I’d be happy to admit that there are a bunch of hyaenas on here.